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I was neither angry nor insulting . . . just observing.
So you call people stupid, and then you say it was not an insult, just an observation? You could have apologized, but instead you chose to add on.
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This is just more of your all-or-nothing, black or white thinking that makes discussing things with you so difficult. What you have said is NOT true, period . . . it seldom is.
It was a very simple question. Whether you believe the verses (the way they are written), or you don't. You refused to answer, and went back to talking about me.
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Never said any such thing. Why do you do that?
Because the creation is described in the OT, and your opinion about the OT is this: "The entire OT was written by ignorant savages who believed EVERYTHING was done by God".
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You cannot seem to grasp that He quoted the OT because it told of Him It established His status. Your belief that the OT is either ALL true (as you understand it) or none of it is true . . . is just WRONG. More of your all-or-nothing thinking that corrupts your understanding of the God Christ revealed. I use the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) to understand the OT because it is under the "veil of ignorance" (blind minds) that only Christ came to lift. You seem to refuse to do so apparently because you do NOT believe God has "written in our heart" so that our heart can be trusted.
I asked you about Sodom and Gomorrah, because Jesus talked about them. You refused to answer the question, and instead you go right back to talking about me. I am not the topic.
If the truth is written in my heart, then why do you reject it? Shouldn't you embrace every word of it?
Lets try again. Do you agree God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as the Bible decribes?
OT: Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens
NT: But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all (Luke 17:29 - Jesus Christ)
NT: Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town (Matt 10:15 - Jesus Christ)
NT: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
And the flood in the NT: People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (Jesus Christ)
Do you believe God destroyed people in the flood?
These are simple questions, and your refusal to answer them directly is very telling. You and other universalists keep suggesting the OT was written by ignorant savages which would render the book meaningless, yet at the same time when anyone suggests you downplay the OT, you feigh anger and accuse people of misrepresenting your views. So, once and for all, do you believe God physically destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and so you believe he destroyed people in the flood? Yes, or no?
The God portrayed in the old testament is not the God, Jesus Christ made known to us by his life and what he taught.
It is absolutely clear in the New Testament writings that not only did we not know God but even by the Old Testament writings could we could not truly know him.
Do you agree God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as the Bible describes? Jesus says He did.
OT: Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens
NT: But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all (Luke 17:29 - Jesus Christ)
NT: Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town (Matt 10:15 - Jesus Christ)
NT: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
And the flood in the NT: People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (Jesus Christ)
Do you agree God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as the Bible describes? Jesus says He did.
OT: Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens
NT: But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all (Luke 17:29 - Jesus Christ)
NT: Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town (Matt 10:15 - Jesus Christ)
NT: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
And the flood in the NT: People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (Jesus Christ)
Do you believe God destroyed people in the flood?
You are asking the wrong person this, because I do not believe in literalism of the scriptures( one of the many reasons you have it wrong when you insist on calling me a universalist).
Do you believe the devil beast that spoke to Adam and Eve was literal and then literally went on its belly being cursed as described in Genesis 3 ? Yes or No ( playing you at our own game)
Last edited by pcamps; 04-28-2013 at 12:08 PM..
Reason: Referring to myself as a literalist :-)
Do you believe the devil beast that spoke to Adam and Eve was literal and then literally went on its belly being cursed as described in Genesis 3 ? Yes or No ( playing you at our own game)
OK, so you believe the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah, and destroyed people in the flood. Thank you.
You contradict your earlier comments, but I appreciate you finally answering the question.
No I do not, like I said already to you I am not a bible literalist and neither are you, if you are typing posts with your hands and reading them.
And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
If you are left handed like me, and have a strong left eye like me, these 2 verses do not apply to you either. Unless of cause right hand and right eye mean something entirely different than your 100% bible literalist take on it
Do you have some examples of Bible verses which were influenced by those superstitions?
Talking trees (Judges 9:8-15). Another example is the reference to the “fleeing or twisted serpent†in (Job 26:13; Isa. 27:1). The fleeing serpent was a designation for Leviathan. Theses passages were evidently alluding to the contemporary superstitious belief about sea monsters.
Back to the OP: 2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ
So, I'd say it is just some of the reports about Gd in the OT that don't match.
Back to the OP: 2 Cor 4:6 For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ
So, I'd say it is just some of the reports about Gd in the OT that don't match.
This is true, they wrote in the light they had. What was the point of the one called the Light of the world, if those under the old covenant already had seen the Light of the world?.
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Now the 100% bible believer wants us to believe that those who knew him not, wrote about a God they knew not, correctly 100% of the time.
Hebrews 1:2 but in these last days he has spoken to usby his Son
It was a very simple question. Whether you believe the verses (the way they are written), or you don't. You refused to answer, and went back to talking about me.
Because the creation is described in the OT, and your opinion about the OT is this: "The entire OT was written by ignorant savages who believed EVERYTHING was done by God".
I asked you about Sodom and Gomorrah, because Jesus talked about them. You refused to answer the question, and instead you go right back to talking about me. I am not the topic.
If the truth is written in my heart, then why do you reject it? Shouldn't you embrace every word of it?
The questions about the OT are not Yes or No questions.
#1. The bible is NOT a history book . . . so whether or not the events happened is irrelevant.
#2. The stories are examples for our instruction. It is the lessons in the stories that are important . . . not whether or not they actually happened.
#3. None of the stories can be used to claim "God did anything" because our ignorant savage ancestors simply believed God did everything . . . making their testimony worthless.
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Lets try again. Do you agree God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah as the Bible decribes?
I believe the story describes the terrible destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. I do not believe God did it. That does not mean it cannot be used by Jesus as an example of horrible consequences . . . because it is an excellent example.
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OT: Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens
NT: But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all (Luke 17:29 - Jesus Christ)
NT: Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town (Matt 10:15 - Jesus Christ)
NT: In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7)
And the flood in the NT: People were eating, drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all. (Jesus Christ)
Do you believe God destroyed people in the flood?
The point is that the people He was talking to knew of and believed the stories. Christ using them as examples to illustrate His points does not mean He is validating the stories as true. He is just using their knowledge of them and their beliefs about them to make His points. The Bible is for Spiritual instruction . . .NOT historical documentation. We read it spiritually to learn the lessons in it . . . not to learn history.
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These are simple questions, and your refusal to answer them directly is very telling. You and other universalists keep suggesting the OT was written by ignorant savages which would render the book meaningless
NOT true. It is not meaningless . . . that IS a misrepresentation. It has to be interpreted using Christ's revelations about God's True Nature . . . a very different issue.
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yet at the same time when anyone suggests you downplay the OT, you feigh anger and accuse people of misrepresenting your views. So, once and for all, do you believe God physically destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and so you believe he destroyed people in the flood? Yes, or no?
I explained why they are not yes or no questions . . . ignore it if you wish. I do not believe God destroyed anybody for any reason, period . . . because Jesus Christ did NOT . . . and He had plenty of opportunity and reasons to do so! The nature of Jesus Christ IS the nature of our God. You believe otherwise at your peril.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-28-2013 at 03:44 PM..
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