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Priceless. Proving the Bible is not to be trusted, BY QUOTING THE BIBLE.
As I've asked before, which you conveniently have ignored, what makes your visions and opinions any more valid than those earlier writers you call ignorant and superstitious?
Off topic . . . but for starters . . . I am neither ignorant nor superstitious.
Not believing that our ancestors were ignorant and superstitious is WHY you think God brings Evil into anyone's lives. As far as they were concerned in their savage mentality . . . God brought everything into their lives. That is why they tried to appease God with blood sacrifices
to try to eliminate the bad things! Christ tried to correct their misunderstanding of God and in their savagery and brutality they scourged and crucified Him for it.
I have an interesting question for you and the other URs who agree with you on this:
Let's pretend for a second that the whole Penial Substitution idea of Christs sacrifice is the unquestionable truth and that it does allow God to save everyone as the more conservative URs believe...If the God had the Hebrews kill all those people in the old testament to not only show the significance of sin, but also to bring about the line of the Messiah with as little impact on human freewill as possible and in doing so, saving even the souls of the ones he had the hebrews kill, would his actions (Gods actions through the Hebrews) not hypothetically be done in Love?
Last edited by Jrhockney; 04-26-2013 at 02:22 PM..
Reason: Clarification
Off topic . . . but for starters . . . I am neither ignorant nor superstitious.
Of course, your statement here is subjective and open to debate.
I think its very much on topic since you're insinuating that the writers of the OT weren't smart enough to accurately portray the OT God. What makes you more of an authority than them?
The Spirit does not contradict the Bible. The Spirit helps you understand the Bible, so the two go hand in hand as opposed to being mutually exclusive as you seem to suggest.
What is not mutually exclusive (to me anyway), is what the scriptures actually teach(hidden and revealed) and the understanding of those claim to be 100% bible believers. I believe scripture when understood in the spirit bares witness to THE truth and the truth in reality is what we see in Jesus Christ, trying to understand God in any other way is going up a blind alley.
I have an interesting question for you and the other URs who agree with you on this:
Let's pretend for a second that the whole Penial Substitution idea of Christs sacrifice is the unquestionable truth and that it does allow God to save everyone as the more conservative URs believe...If the God had the Hebrews kill all those people in the old testament to not only show the significance of sin, but also to bring about the line of the Messiah with as little impact on human freewill as possible and in doing so, saving even the souls of the ones he had the hebrews kill, would his action not hypothetically be done in Love?
I was tempted to brush the question off with . . . "It would not be loving to those who were killed! Your view requires that God be a respecter of persons. In my view God loves us ALL."
But on deeper consideration . . . I see an enigma that touches on our ignorance of the next life . . . which is arguably the most important one. The OT recounts what COULD be interpreted as a breeding program . . . involving culling of the species to produce a breed capable of self-control at the time of Christ that were "ripe for the harvest." I have no answer for you, Jrhockney. It is NOT an idea that resonates with or is consistent with the consciousness that I encounter . . . but it is not easily dismissed.
I was tempted to brush the question off with . . . "It would not be loving to those who were killed! Your view requires that God be a respecter of persons. In my view God loves us ALL."
But on deeper consideration . . . I see an enigma that touches on our ignorance of the next life . . . which is arguably the most important one. The OT recounts what COULD be interpreted as a breeding program . . . involving culling of the species to produce a breed capable of self-control at the time of Christ that were "ripe for the harvest." I have no answer for you, Jrhockney. It is NOT an idea that resonates with or is consistent with the consciousness that I encounter . . . but it is not easily dismissed.
Yeah ... this is actually pretty much exactly how I understood the actions of God as portrayed by the OT authors when I was a biblical inerrantist UR. I saw their being killed as for the good of all mankind, including themselves in the long run. But I simply no longer believe that God acts in that way.
As I see it, God kills no one, but rather we (the human race, collectively) bring death to ourselves by being out of harmony with the spiritual laws which God has put in place to govern us. Those laws are, of course, grounded in the love of God, so I believe those laws must always have a loving purpose for all concerned. (One major purpose I see is that they serve as a mirror to show us that we ARE out of harmony with love.)
The fact that some OT authors attributed their killing of others to God's command was a vile cop-out; and attributing natural disasters to being God's judgment was a misunderstanding of the fact that none of us are immune to physical death or the physical laws which govern our world.
Yeah ... this is actually pretty much exactly how I understood the actions of God as portrayed by the OT authors when I was a biblical inerrantist UR. I saw their being killed as for the good of all mankind, including themselves in the long run. But I simply no longer believe that God acts in that way.
As I see it, God kills no one, but rather we (the human race, collectively) bring death to ourselves by being out of harmony with the spiritual laws which God has put in place to govern us. Those laws are, of course, grounded in the love of God, so I believe those laws must always have a loving purpose for all concerned. (One major purpose I see is that they serve as a mirror to show us that we ARE out of harmony with love.)
The fact that some OT authors attributed their killing of others to God's command was a vile cop-out; and attributing natural disasters to being God's judgment was a misunderstanding of the fact that none of us are immune to physical death or the physical laws which govern our world.
aisi
Let me add this quickly before I bug out of here to take my son to his baseball game ... Killing is out of harmony with love, and there is no way God could or would violate his own spiritual law, much less would He order others to violate it, knowing the toll it would take on their souls.
I was tempted to brush the question off with . . . "It would not be loving to those who were killed! Your view requires that God be a respecter of persons. In my view God loves us ALL."
But on deeper consideration . . . I see an enigma that touches on our ignorance of the next life . . . which is arguably the most important one. The OT recounts what COULD be interpreted as a breeding program . . . involving culling of the species to produce a breed capable of self-control at the time of Christ that were "ripe for the harvest." I have no answer for you, Jrhockney. It is NOT an idea that resonates with or is consistent with the consciousness that I encounter . . . but it is not easily dismissed.
I don't dismiss your idea either Apart of me would like to think he has the planning to where he wouldn't have to resort to all that even while allowing freewill, but who knows if that is even possible. God may not be able to make square-circles.
I would also like to think that God helped preserve enough of his word and history to where we can say the bible is a mostly if not completely reliable source of God's thoughts and actions. Perhaps that wish and coupled with my openness to various philosophical ideas of what constitutes true Love leads me to lean more towards my idea. Since God likely has access to all dimensions of space and can see the possible outcomes of all decisions ever made, it may have been heart breaking for him to order the death of these people, but still necessary.
We often have to put down our beloved pets because they are in pain or in some cases kill them off to prevent spreading a disease and we consider these actions to be loving or at least "the best choice." This may not be nearly close enough of a parallel, but it gives you an idea of how God's thought process may have been if he indeed was behind it...or maybe allowed Satan to influence it like in the case of Job.
...come to think of it, maybe Satan was behind those commands and God only allowed him to give them in order to bring about his overall plan! ...meh, hypothetical...who knows...
Last edited by Jrhockney; 04-26-2013 at 04:33 PM..
Reason: Hypothetical *gasp!* lol
Yeah ... this is actually pretty much exactly how I understood the actions of God as portrayed by the OT authors when I was a biblical inerrantist UR. I saw their being killed as for the good of all mankind, including themselves in the long run. But I simply no longer believe that God acts in that way.
As I see it, God kills no one, but rather we (the human race, collectively) bring death to ourselves by being out of harmony with the spiritual laws which God has put in place to govern us. Those laws are, of course, grounded in the love of God, so I believe those laws must always have a loving purpose for all concerned. (One major purpose I see is that they serve as a mirror to show us that we ARE out of harmony with love.)
The fact that some OT authors attributed their killing of others to God's command was a vile cop-out; and attributing natural disasters to being God's judgment was a misunderstanding of the fact that none of us are immune to physical death or the physical laws which govern our world.aisi
I obviously agree with you completely, Pleroo . . . just acknowledging the rationale for the other view.
There you go again with the misrepresentation/straw man. Nobody said anything about them being "mutually exclusive". You're projecting your all or nothing mindset onto others. It is you who believe that the Spirit musn't contradict ANYthing in the Bible or else that means the WHOLE thing is worthless. But that's not what is being said by others.
LOL. I specifically said the opposite, and you spin that in to "projecting" and accuse me of misrepresenting someone. Stop it.
I'll repeat it again: trust the Bible AND the Spirit, BOTH. The are NOT mutually exclusive.
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Apart of me would like to think he has the planning to where he wouldn't have to resort to all that even while allowing freewill, but who knows if that is even possible. God may not be able to make square-circles.
...meh, hypothetical...who knows...
