How many works or 'works of Christ' does it take to save us? (church, suicide)

[trettep]

Originally Posted by romans519

Jesus made you a child of light by His blood. Believing in His once and for all sacrifice causes a person to be born again. This is something God does to you. Its not something you do to yourself. You only consent to it happening. Once you are born again the good fruits happen naturally apart from your efforts. If they come form your efforts they are not good fruits, less they be motivated by the holy spirit.

Jesus claimed the Apostles were Sons even before the "Finished" work of the cross as you call it was completed.

[TRANSPONDER]

One for the Christian Forum?

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by romans519

If you believe that then you're saying the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient in saving us. You believe Adam's sin has more power than Jesus' righteousness. We are saved because Jesus obeyed. Our obedience cannot make us anymore righteous that Jesus has already made us.

You believe you are a child of God. A family member? Who are Christ's family. In His words:

English Standard Version
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

New American Standard Bible
"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

King James Bible
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother."

Parallel verse: John 15:14-
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.

Now your only choice, if you believe in faith alone, is to say Jesus made NO commandments other than "have faith in him." But then you must equally discount the dozens of verses that say, "this is how you will know who follows me---"

You cannot cling to sin and cling to Jesus. A house divided against itself cannot stand. You cannot argue that works must be in perfection, for when we accomplish works in faith and grace, then they are made perfect in His love. So the works of a Christian ARE perfect, not in and of themselves, but because Christ honors those who are obedient servants. The word "believe" in the Scripture is almost always in the active tense, never pointing to a moment in the past, but pointing to the moment at hand.

[MysticPhD]

Originally Posted by MysticPhD

Every organism has its own limits of maturity . . . that is what the "within their reach" in the bold refers to. To mature simply means to reach those limits of growth and development that apply to us. This is not rocket science . . . everything alive has a maturity cycle of growth . . . including our embryo Spirit within this physical womb. After our rebirth as Spirit we will have another cycle of growth as newborn Spirits . . . as it was in the beginning and will be forever.
The clear intent is to be "fully mature" . . . not some paragon of perfection . . . as the word "perfect" implies in English use today.

Originally Posted by steven_h

Completely agree. Christ died for our sins, and those who accept his gift of salvation through belief will be at his side in his kingdom.
With that said: Doctor Eugene Scott had a great analogy. You are saved through Christ, however you should try to live as Christ teaches as best you can. After all, those streets of gold will need someone to sweep them.

I like the analogy . . . but it tends to be lost on the dogmatic. I see this life as our opportunity to affect the characteristics we will be reborn with as Spirit. Imagine if you could have chosen as a physical embryo in your mother's womb what characteristics you would be born with.

[bulmabriefs144]

I don't believe in free grace.

It's a crock. What if Hitler in his last seconds had said "Lord save me" before shooting his dogs and killing himself? It is what you do, even if Christ did save us.

[romans519]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

I don't believe in free grace.

It's a crock. What if Hitler in his last seconds had said "Lord save me" before shooting his dogs and killing himself? It is what you do, even if Christ did save us.

Any person no matter how evil if they confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord and believe God raised Him from the dead they will be saved. Jesus is not a liar. No sin is greater than the blood of Jesus. To believe otherwise is to have more faith in sin than the saving grace of our Lord Jesus.

[romans519]

Originally Posted by Wardendresden

You believe you are a child of God. A family member? Who are Christ's family. In His words:

English Standard Version
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

New American Standard Bible
"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."

King James Bible
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven, that person is My brother and sister and mother."

Parallel verse: John 15:14-
John 15:14
You are my friends if you do what I command.

Now your only choice, if you believe in faith alone, is to say Jesus made NO commandments other than "have faith in him." But then you must equally discount the dozens of verses that say, "this is how you will know who follows me---"

You cannot cling to sin and cling to Jesus. A house divided against itself cannot stand. You cannot argue that works must be in perfection, for when we accomplish works in faith and grace, then they are made perfect in His love. So the works of a Christian ARE perfect, not in and of themselves, but because Christ honors those who are obedient servants. The word "believe" in the Scripture is almost always in the active tense, never pointing to a moment in the past, but pointing to the moment at hand.

First you need to learn the will of the Father and the context of the verse you quoted. Mike555 posted an excellent thread about this recently which you can read here: https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ry-strong.html

The will of the Father for us is to believe in Jesus. It always bothers me when people quote "you gotta do the will of the Father" without first knowing that that means.

[trettep]

Originally Posted by romans519

First you need to learn the will of the Father and the context of the verse you quoted. Mike555 posted an excellent thread about this recently which you can read here: https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ry-strong.html

The will of the Father for us is to believe in Jesus. It always bothers me when people quote "you gotta do the will of the Father" without first knowing that that means.

Jesus said not to believe in Him unless He did works.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

[Faith_Plus_Nothing]

Originally Posted by bulmabriefs144

I don't believe in free grace.

It's a crock. What if Hitler in his last seconds had said "Lord save me" before shooting his dogs and killing himself? It is what you do, even if Christ did save us.

It is not what you do! Once saved all your past sin is under the blood and no longer seen by God. You will account and receive your reward based on what you do after that point. Why would you thing the first thing a new-born Christian would do is commit suicide?

[Wardendresden]

Originally Posted by romans519

First you need to learn the will of the Father and the context of the verse you quoted. Mike555 posted an excellent thread about this recently which you can read here: https://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...ry-strong.html

The will of the Father for us is to believe in Jesus. It always bothers me when people quote "you gotta do the will of the Father" without first knowing that that means.

Yes, but YOU have to read ALL the Bible, not just the parts that support the theology that you were taught, because you didn't discover it on your own. As stated before, if you see a turtle on a fence post you know it had help getting there.

How is one part of the family of God without putting His word into practice? They aren't. Instead they are like a man one day who had just put the finishing touches on a new concrete driveway and went inside to enjoy a glass of tea, when to his horror, looking out the window, he saw the neighbor's small boy playing in the fresh concrete. He ran out angrily shouting at the child. After fixing the concrete he came back inside where his wife asked him, "Why did you yell so angrily at that little boy. I thought you loved little boys." To which the man replied, "I love little boys in the abstract, but I don't like them in the concrete."

Many who say they are Christians are like that. They love Jesus in the abstract, but they don't like Him in the concrete. When truth gets too specific, when it means I have to actually change my life within the power of God, it goes too far. Like Linus in the comic strip, we shout, "I love mankind!!! It's people I can't stand."

Every person who claims to be a Christian loves Christ in the abstract. But when it means I have to actually change the way I think, the way I treat my wife and kids, the way I do business, the way I spend my time and money, and even the way I treat my enemies, "Now wait a minute, you've gone from preaching to meddling. I want to be saved without the hassle!"

But you shall know them by their fruits--Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16. The word "fruit" used here is Strong's Number 2590, which means "work, act, deed" [Strong's Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]

Since it doesn't fit your theology you have to "explain" Jesus statement was to someone else instead of doing what men of faith really do---see every word out of the mouth of Christ as directed toward themselves. That's why the thread of truth must be traced through and be reconciled with ALL scripture.

And how does living one's faith---or not living it affect the unbeliever or non-Christian?

Another story in order to use parables that Jesus used to teach truth--

A mother was reprimanding her small son, "Johnny do you know what happens to little boys who tell lies?"

"Yes," he replied. "They travel for half fare."

Her life was a demonstration to her son about what was in her heart. He had learned from her leadership. And this is the reason churches are failing in the message they deliver today, to make any real difference in the lives of those who "accept" Christ. They teach loving Jesus in the abstract, but not in the concrete.

Matt 12:50
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same shall be my brother and sister, and mother."

In all the ages of the world, people have accepted words for deeds, FOR THEY ARE CONTENT WITH A SHOW, and rarely pause to note, in the public arena, whether promises to God (I believe in You, Lord) are followed by performance.

Although Paul wrote the following words to encourage Christians to provide for those who minister to them, in some ways it is a rhetorical question, stating that God expects to do the same from His children.

New International Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk?

English Standard Version
Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard without eating any of its fruit? Or who tends a flock without getting some of the milk?

New American Standard Bible
Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?

King James Bible
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its fruit? Or who shepherds a flock and does not drink the milk from the flock?

International Standard Version
Who ever goes to war at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat any of its grapes? Or who takes care of a flock and does not drink any of its milk?

Well, if you believe OSAS, apparently God plants vineyards and does not expect to eat any of the grapes, and tends sheep with no expectation of milk.

So Jesus said, "Take up your cross and follow me." What kind of cross do you bear if there are no requirements upon you as a servant?