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That is ONE aspect. There is also another physical aspect and for Mary that ended, thus NOT a virgin after Jesus birth. After all, what is the traditional evidence of virginity?
Did you know that a hymen can be broken when a girl falls onto the horizontal cross bar of her brother's bike? It's true. The biology teacher had to explain that to all the reeeeeeealy conservative parents circa 1966 who didn't even want their daughters learning they had a hymen. Much less that it had a name.
Following your beliefs that girl is no longer eligible to wear white at her wedding when Dad gives away that always-cherished-among-the-fundamentalists virgin bride. Wowza. Juuuuuust when I think we're all in the 21st century the old "broken hymen determines virginity" crowd emerges.
So the justification that Mary wasn't a virgin because she'd given birth is just one more illustration of how far some people are willing to go to tell the Catholics, "You're wrong!"
Did you know that a hymen can be broken when a girl falls onto the horizontal cross bar of her brother's bike? It's true. The biology teacher had to explain that to all the reeeeeeealy conservative parents circa 1966 who didn't even want their daughters learning they had a hymen. Much less that it had a name.
Following your beliefs that girl is no longer eligible to wear white at her wedding when Dad gives away that always-cherished-among-the-fundamentalists virgin bride. Wowza. Juuuuuust when I think we're all in the 21st century the old "broken hymen determines virginity" crowd emerges.
Hi,
Some people have no sense of humor.
My point was simple, Mary was no longer "intact" after Jesus was born (Slightly different than the possible loss of such on a bike) and there is no reason in Scripture for the perpetual virginity of Mary and no scriptural reason to think Joseph did not end her virginity and give her other children.
It does show how focused people can become and ignore .... Scripture and make up all sorts of arguments for a belief.
Yeah, I usually fail to see the humor in believers of one religion telling the believers of another religion they're wrong. Yep. Not seeing the knee slapping humor when either side tells the other "You're wrong! Mine's best!"
Airplanes get flown into buildings when one side decides the other side is wrong.
My point was simple, Mary was no longer "intact" after Jesus was born (Slightly different than the possible loss of such on a bike) and there is no reason in Scripture for the perpetual virginity of Mary and no scriptural reason to think Joseph did not end her virginity and give her other children.
It does show how focused people can become and ignore .... Scripture and make up all sorts of arguments for a belief.
YOU were talking about the physical condition of virginity and making up your own definition to fit it. Girls who are physically very active in sports, who ride horses a lot, etc. can damage the hymen, and girls who are born without a hymen are all still virgins until they engage in PIV sexual intercourse.
I am not arguing about Mary, I'm arguing about your ignorant, backward definition of virginity.
Yeah, I usually fail to see the humor in believers of one religion telling the believers of another religion they're wrong. Yep. Not seeing the knee slapping humor when either side tells the other "You're wrong! Mine's best!"
Airplanes get flown into buildings when one side decides the other side is wrong.
You need humor it seems.
I have not said YOU are wrong, so lightening up is a good idea. Even God laughs.
I am trying to make a point and do so without personal animus towards you or anyone else. I am addressing a "teaching" of man not the Bible.
Yes airplanes do get flown into buildings by people following false teachings and good Catholics killed good Protestants (and Vice Versa) in Ireland with bombs over politics and religion as well, so what is your point?
Yeah, I usually fail to see the humor in believers of one religion telling the believers of another religion they're wrong. Yep. Not seeing the knee slapping humor when either side tells the other "You're wrong! Mine's best!"
Airplanes get flown into buildings when one side decides the other side is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
You need humor it seems.
I have not said YOU are wrong, so lightening up is a good idea. Even God laughs.
I am trying to make a point and do so without personal animus towards you or anyone else. I am addressing a "teaching" of man not the Bible.
Yes airplanes do get flown into buildings by people following false teachings and good Catholics killed good Protestants (and Vice Versa) in Ireland with bombs over politics and religion as well, so what is your point?
The point is that NO religion has the right to usurp the position of God and claim they are the ONLY true religion representing God, period! God is God and NO religion has the corner on the market regarding belief in God. What we humans believe ABOUT God is irrelevant. What we DO with our belief in God IS what concerns God. If belief in God does not affect what we DO or become . . . it has no purpose whatsoever.
YOU were talking about the physical condition of virginity and making up your own definition to fit it. Girls who are physically very active in sports, who ride horses a lot, etc. can damage the hymen, and girls who are born without a hymen are all still virgins until they engage in PIV sexual intercourse.
I am not arguing about Mary, I'm arguing about your ignorant, backward definition of virginity.
Let me make my point a bit clearer.
In the Bible, not anything to do with what man today or in an yother day mat think, the two are linked.
Note no bikes and girls/women rode a bit different then too, so a non issue except in a very rare instance.
The Bible:
KJV Genesis 24:16 And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her:
Note the added thought that takes it beyond JUST being known by a man,
This is why we read:
KJV Deut 22: 13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the ***** in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Note the evidence required.
OK now no one challenged Mary's virginity when first married.
After Jesus birth it is never mentioned at all.
She is a married woman and expected to have intercourse with her hubby and there is no indication she did not, in Scripture and there is evidence she did in Scripture.
KJV Matt 1: 24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not tillshe had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
NAS Matthew 1:25 and kept her a virgin untilshe gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
She is spoken of as having sons and daughters. Now the terms are used of cousins as well, but in every instance we have collateral evidence they were cousins, which is how we know it can be used that way. In the case of Mary's children no such description/evidence exists so the Bible means ... brothers and sisters to Jesus not cousins.
Mary is never exalted in Scripture as the RCC does and rarely mentioned after his ministry started and virtually never after his death at all.
Jesus is listed as listening to her once and turned water into wine. After that he even refused to see her when she came and he was busy teaching and his only personal concern was shown at his death when he asked John to care for her.
The whole: perpetual virgin, mother of God, Queen of the heavens, One who can be prayed to for intersession, etc is nowhere in scripture. It is a man made teaching to please pagan worshipers who were sued to a woman goddess, a Madonna and child a queen of the heavens, and this made them comfortable, etc.
YOU were talking about the physical condition of virginity and making up your own definition to fit it. Girls who are physically very active in sports, who ride horses a lot, etc. can damage the hymen, and girls who are born without a hymen are all still virgins until they engage in PIV sexual intercourse.
I am not arguing about Mary, I'm arguing about your ignorant, backward definition of virginity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA
Let me make my point a bit clearer.
You are wasting your time, Moonbeam. He just confirmed that he is using an archaic backward definition of virginity that is right up there with stoning people. It is silly to argue with anyone who has not adopted 21st century civilization and prefers ancient ignorance. The relevant points simply go over their heads.
I dont think you should bash a Catholic as a person, but anything that goes against the bible needs to be addressed if it does against scripture. Life is not about being a Christian or believing in and following any creeds, it is about believing Jesus died for your sins, repenting and trying to live your life like he did and how he commanded us to. If someone or something goes against what the bible teaches, it needs to be pointed out and corrected in Love, without name calling, or condemning someone to hell, or calling it the Beast/Anti-Christ worship.
1.Does the bible command us to have a Pope?
2.Does the bible speak against graven images?
3.Does the bible speak against idolatry and bowing to statues?
4.Doesn't the bible say only God(YHWH) can forgive sins?
5.Doesnt the bible say to only pray to the Father, NOT Mary?
6.Does the bible speak against substituting what God commands and replacing it with human traditions?
Again this is not a Catholic basing, but to really question is Catholicism (mainly RCC) following and teaching what the bible commands or making up its own rules.
Dear Saan, 1. Mt 23:7-10," ..do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth your father; for one is your father, he who is in heaven. And do not be called leaders; for one is your leader,.."
2 & 3. EX 20 4–6 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
4. For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
5. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. This, then, is how you should pray: “‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation but deliver us from the evil one’
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
6. Is 29:13 ,"THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME. BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN"
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