State of Kentucky forbids pastors from calling homosexuality a sin (ritual, accept)
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9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Is this the word of God or is it part of the contents of one of Paul's letters? Why is it that Paul is persistently equated with God? This is not to mention that 'homosexuality' is nowhere mentioned in that list.
You also mention Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Again, this is the writing of Paul, not God. And again, where is 'homosexuality' mentioned in the list?
it says homosexuality in many versions( actually it says--men who lie with men--women with women is included in that)--there area few spots in the bible that condemn homosexuality)--not to mention one of the gay men out of 2 is effeminate.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Is this the word of God or is it part of the contents of one of Paul's letters? Why is it that Paul is persistently equated with God? This is not to mention that 'homosexuality' is nowhere mentioned in that list.
You also mention Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Again, this is the writing of Paul, not God. And again, where is 'homosexuality' mentioned in the list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
it says homosexuality in many versions . . .
And I say that these versions are in error. You are aware that 'men' wrote the Bible, are you not? You are aware that 'men' collated the Bible and determined what should and what should not be placed in it? There is no biblical term for 'homosexual' as we today define the term ...not in in Hebrew, not in Aramaic and not in Greek. Later translators of the Bible decided to use the term 'homosexuality' in lieu of terms that mean no such thing. As said, these versions are in error and this needs to be acknowledged publicly by every honest Christian out there. Vizio, Jeff, etc. know this but they never acknowledge it. Indeed, they disregard it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
. . .(actually it says--men who lie with men--women with women is included in that)--
Really? I see no such thing in the lists of 'sins' you gave. I do, however, see just about every human being that I know in those lists. You're probably in there too if the truth be known . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjw47
. . .there area few spots in the bible that condemn homosexuality)--not to mention one of the gay men out of 2 is effeminate.
And I say that these versions are in error. You are aware that 'men' wrote the Bible, are you not? You are aware that 'men' collated the Bible and determined what should and what should not be placed in it? There is no biblical term for 'homosexual' as we today define the term ...not in in Hebrew, not in Aramaic and not in Greek. Later translators of the Bible decided to use the term 'homosexuality' in lieu of terms that mean no such thing. As said, these versions are in error and this needs to be acknowledged publicly by every honest Christian out there. Vizio, Jeff, etc. know this but they never acknowledge it. Indeed, they disregard it.
How can you state this is an error? Just because they didn't have a term for same-sex intercourse doesn't mean it isn't what they meant. The original text is just as clear if you read the Greek or the Hebrew or the Aramaic... Besides, even if you disregard all the passages that speak of same-sex intercourse, it falls into the next category of fornication, as two members of the same sex cannot be married according to the Scripture and God's plan.
And I say that these versions are in error. You are aware that 'men' wrote the Bible, are you not? You are aware that 'men' collated the Bible and determined what should and what should not be placed in it? There is no biblical term for 'homosexual' as we today define the term ...not in in Hebrew, not in Aramaic and not in Greek. Later translators of the Bible decided to use the term 'homosexuality' in lieu of terms that mean no such thing. As said, these versions are in error and this needs to be acknowledged publicly by every honest Christian out there. Vizio, Jeff, etc. know this but they never acknowledge it. Indeed, they disregard it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
How can you state this is an error?
Yes, perhaps "error" was the incorrect word to use.
The word "lie" is probably more appropriate!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
Just because they didn't have a term for same-sex intercourse doesn't mean it isn't what they meant.
'They' apparently DID mean same-sex intercourse. I never said that they didn't. What "I" said was that OUR modern definition of homosexuality, i.e. the knowledge that one's sexual attraction to others of the same gender is innate, was NOT even on the radar of the Bible authors and so could not have been what these three or four passages in the entire Bible could have been referencing. Yes, same-sex intercourse is addressed. But, in what context? Intimacy between consensual couples of the same sexual orientation? Commitment to marriage between two consenting adults of the same gender?
No!
Whenever same-sex intercourse is mentioned in these few Bible passages (as said, only three of four places in the entire Bible) they are referencing idolatry practices and sacred shrine temple prostitution. And, it's likely that these participants were heterosexual. If you don't know this and are simply making a broad brush approach to the issue of homosexuality as taught to you by those in ignorance of the real meaning of these Bible passages, then you should perhaps not be here debating the topic in the first place. However, I AM open to correction. So, should you or anyone else give positive proof that these passages of scripture DON'T refer to idolatry and sacred shrine temple prostitution, then I'm all ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
The original text is just as clear if you read the Greek or the Hebrew or the Aramaic...
That's right. They 'clearly' refer to practices affiliated with idolatry and sacred shrine temple prostitution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
Besides, even if you disregard all the passages that speak of same-sex intercourse . . .
All? You mean the three or four references in the entire Bible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ_Maxx
. . .it falls into the next category of fornication, as two members of the same sex cannot be married according to the Scripture and God's plan.
Where does the Bible indicate who is and who is not allowed to be married? This is not to mention, of course that NO ONE on Planet Earth is a 100% follower of 'God's plan' anyway. And, 'no one' includes you. So, who honestly cares what the Bible says or doesn't say?
The majority of Christians are, by default, hypocrites. They can't be anything else as long as they persistently quote condemning scripture to others as many of them do. I mean, how many heterosexual 'Christians' fornicate or have fornicated in the past before marriage? Many? Most? So, do these countless fornicators get a wink from God just because they happen to be straight? No. They are no better or any different than their gay counterparts. And, more and more of these gay folks desire a committed relationship with their partner ...hence gay marriage ...which you (apparently) and others object to because 'the book' doesn't appear to okay it.
it says homosexuality in many versions( actually it says--men who lie with men--women with women is included in that)--there area few spots in the bible that condemn homosexuality)--not to mention one of the gay men out of 2 is effeminate.
Since the word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until the 19th century, the term in Hebrew or Greek cannot possibly mean "homosexual." It may mean homosexual SEX, which was one of the problems in Rome itself. Hence, Paul's writing in Romans 1 was to the Roman CHRISTIANS who were practicing sex with temple prostitutes. Those CHRISTIANS were doing the same thing. In other words, they had not left their idols.
No wonder Paul was upset.
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The word Homosexualität was coined by the German-Hungarian Károly Mária Kertbeny (born Karl Maria Benkert; 1824–82). It is a compound of Greek homo, same, and Medieval Latin sexualis, sexual, and was coined along the lines of the late eighteenth-century French botanical terms unisexuel and bisexuel. There are no grounds for rejecting it as a ‘bastard’ term, any more than innumerable Greek/Latin hybrids such as petroleum and automobile and television. It occurs first in a letter to Karl Heinrich Ulrichs dated 6 May 1868, -----
It wasn't until the 20th century that "homosexual" was even found in any Bible. From memory, I think it was the RSV in 1946 where it showed up.
So using that term, definitely puts a modern translation on the verses, and we cannot have any certainity that Paul's "invented" terms, down to is a tragic loss of translation of two key Greek words, “arsenokoitai” and “malakoi.”
Most modern scholars think that Paul was criticizing "uncommon" or "unusual" relationships between same sex individuals. But then it was "uncommon" for Jews like Jesus to speak to Samaritans, or even speak to any strange women first at all. Based on Jesus' openness, it is only a fool who determines that something uncommon or unusual is "evil."
Since the word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until the 19th century, the term in Hebrew or Greek cannot possibly mean "homosexual." It may mean homosexual SEX, which was one of the problems in Rome itself. Hence, Paul's writing in Romans 1 was to the Roman CHRISTIANS who were practicing sex with temple prostitutes. Those CHRISTIANS were doing the same thing. In other words, they had not left their idols.
It wasn't until the 20th century that "homosexual" was even found in any Bible. From memory, I think it was the RSV in 1946 where it showed up.
So using that term, definitely puts a modern translation on the verses, and we cannot have any certainity that Paul's "invented" terms, down to is a tragic loss of translation of two key Greek words, “arsenokoitai” and “malakoi.”
Most modern scholars think that Paul was criticizing "uncommon" or "unusual" relationships between same sex individuals. But then it was "uncommon" for Jews like Jesus to speak to Samaritans, or even speak to any strange women first at all. Based on Jesus' openness, it is only a fool who determines that something uncommon or unusual is "evil."
It really doesn't matter where the term came from---God says--NO one cannot practice gay sex, he wont even accept a man and a woman having sex out of marriage( fornication)
It really doesn't matter where the term came from---God says--NO one cannot practice gay sex, he wont even accept a man and a woman having sex out of marriage( fornication)
You've missed the point, kjw47. It's not just the term 'homosexuality' that is not found in any pre-1946 Bibles. It's also the notion of homosexuality being a 'legit' innate sexual orientation within humans. This understanding of human sexuality would NOT have been on the radar of the Bible authors. You see, they were NOT God!
The big problem here is that, yet again, the Bible authors and their finished product - the Bible - has become "God" to those such as yourself. The Bible is NOT God. It's a book written by men where proof of their having been inspired by a divine deity is, to my knowledge, nonexistent! However, feel free to prove me wrong.
I've asked this question a number of times previously but all I get from those who should be able to answer my question is the sound of crickets. So, I'll aim this question at you. The Bible (God, to some) mentions same-sex practices in three or four places in the entire Bible. In EACH case same-sex activity refers to sexual practices affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution. The worship of and the practices affiliated with idol worship are a big 'no-no' to the biblical God. THIS is made clear in the very first command of the Big Ten. So, tell me, are there any other references made in the Bible to same-sex practices that have any resemblance to present-day homosexual intimacy, i.e. practices that are NOT affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution?
When debating scriptural issues I prefer appropriate scriptures brought to the table rather than long-held and often flawed mainstream Christian opinions.
you've missed the point, kjw47. It's not just the term 'homosexuality' that is not found in any pre-1946 bibles. It's also the notion of homosexuality being a 'legit' innate sexual orientation within humans. This understanding of human sexuality would not have been on the radar of the bible authors. You see, they were not god!
the big problem here is that, yet again, the bible authors and their finished product - the bible - has become "god" to those such as yourself. The bible is not god. It's a book written by men where proof of their having been inspired by a divine deity is, to my knowledge, nonexistent! However, feel free to prove me wrong.
i've asked this question a number of times previously but all i get from those who should be able to answer my question is the sound of crickets. So, i'll aim this question at you. The bible (god, to some) mentions same-sex practices in three or four places in the entire bible. In each case same-sex activity refers to sexual practices affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution. The worship of and the practices affiliated with idol worship are a big 'no-no' to the biblical god. This is made clear in the very first command of the big ten. So, tell me, are there any other references made in the bible to same-sex practices that have any resemblance to present-day homosexual intimacy, i.e. Practices that are not affiliated with idolatry and temple prostitution?
when debating scriptural issues i prefer appropriate scriptures brought to the table rather than long-held and often flawed mainstream christian opinions.
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