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Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the trouble may be that you are not paying attention when the nature of "agape" is explained.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. 14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”c 15But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.
Nate, the problem is not that I don't know 'agape love'. The problem is that agape love is abused, the Bible is ignored and even denied as having any authority, and the teaching of Jesus Christ in the Bible is in literal opposition to the 'agape love' that you proclaim.
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment. Yet the spirit of agape love, you say, teaches us to love and forgive and not judge.. it doesn't take sin into account anymore, it's all one big cloak of 'love' and one dare not touch it. If anything disagrees with that cloak of 'love', it must be wrong, doesn't matter if it's the Bible or Jesus Christ Himself.
Agape love as you understand it is sort of the ultimate state of spiritual 'being' and anything that even seemingly contradicts that is wrong and oldfashioned 2000 years old naive nonsense.
It seems that 'agape love' has become some sort of an idol. You claim to worship Jesus Christ, you claim that He IS agape love, but where does He actually say that of Himself?
When He says He testifies of this world that it's deeds are evil (John 7:7) I don't see that anywhere in your agape love theology. When He calls to repentance, turning from sin, I don't see that in your agape love message either. When He warns for hell, where the fire isn't quenched and the worm doesn't die.. well you get my point. You're not following the true Biblical Jesus Christ, He came to save sinners, He came to preach repentance and faith. He came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets, not abolish them.
You are not following the Christ of the Bible, you're following your own idol of agape love, very unstably "supported" by a few Bible verses and mainly your own experiences and opinions. And anything in the Bible that contradicts it, you just dismiss because it doesn't fit your spiritual agape love convictions.
How do I know your message not from God? It contradicts the Bible and the saints experience completely. Even Paul called the Law good and himself a sinner incapable of keeping it. Yet because he consents to the Law that it is good and holy, he does not will the sin anymore. God has changed his will, his heart, to hate sin and love Gods Law. Before he was blind to Gods Law as a pharisee, he thought he was serving God and blind to his sin. Just as you are now thinking you are serving God with the anti-Biblical proclamation of agape love.
But just as Paul your will has to be renewed, instead of very sophistically trying to deny the Law and deny Gods Word, humble yourself before Gods Word. And like Paul consent to the Law that it is good, and admit that you are totally incapable of keeping it. Then your will can be changed, to love Gods Law and sorrow over sin, and to bring you to the true Jesus Christ that fulfilled that law you are trying to abolish. I pray God will bring you down in your own pride of 'agape love', and bring you to Jesus Christ for your salvation.
Then you will know true agape love, for God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 7:14-20 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
The law ministered condemnation which ministers DEATH to the hearer, ie. without the law we didn't know what sin was. Why do you think Paul said, RECKON YOURSELVES DEAD? That is the fulfillment of the law's purpose to condemn ALL under sin, so that the Spirit might resurrect ALL, each man in his own season and then a final harvest at the end. You can't have one without the other, it doesn't work that way. All have the two trees within them, all have eaten of the one, not all have eaten of the other, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to be spiritually minded without the Spirit, and the Spirit is not divided on this issue or any other. Peace
Get out of here. The law is good. It man's misunderstanding of God And himself that caused the law to appear to be something that it's not. It was never put in place to prove man is a poor miserable worm of a sinner that was worthy of nothing but eternal hell. That is the lie the scribes of evangelicalism sold to the world.
You don't seem to understand that the letter is GOOD, it fulfills it's job of KILLING THE FLESH perfectly, so that the Spirit CAN give life. The Spirit will not give it's glory to another image, ie. you can't have a resurrection without a dead body! Everyone wants to receive the life of it, but few want to share in the death of it. The problem is, churchianity has had the body focusing on a natural death and not a spiritual one, and many think by escaping that mindset, they escaped it all. They didn't. Peace
I understand what you are saying. And I think you are right. I don't know why my other UR brothers and sisters are in denial of the process and means used for sanctification. I think they are probably just tired of fighting with Pharisees and thus can't see the forest for the trees.
The law ministered condemnation which ministers DEATH to the hearer, ie. without the law we didn't know what sin was.
Is this verse of scripture in your bible ?.
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
So, there's a law written in our hearts that if we were all awake too, we would have no problem seeing when we are missing the mark.
Get out of here. The law is good. It is man's misunderstanding of God and himself that caused the law to appear to be something that it's not. It was never put in place to prove man is a poor miserable worm of a sinner that was worthy of nothing but eternal hell. That is the lie the scribes of evangelicalism sold to the world.
I understand what you are saying. And I think you are right. I don't know why my other UR brothers and sisters are in denial of the process and means used for sanctification. I think they are probably just tired of fighting with Pharisees and thus can't see the forest for the trees.
I think it has more to do with the fact that, like many fundamentalists, she thinks it is her job to condemn people (gays, for instance) with the bible (and her supposed special knowledge of it) -- for their own good, of course.
Nate, the problem is not that I don't know 'agape love'. The problem is that agape love is abused, the Bible is ignored and even denied as having any authority, and the teaching of Jesus Christ in the Bible is in literal opposition to the 'agape love' that you proclaim.
The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment. Yet the spirit of agape love, you say, teaches us to love and forgive and not judge.. it doesn't take sin into account anymore, it's all one big cloak of 'love' and one dare not touch it. If anything disagrees with that cloak of 'love', it must be wrong, doesn't matter if it's the Bible or Jesus Christ Himself.
Agape love as you understand it is sort of the ultimate state of spiritual 'being' and anything that even seemingly contradicts that is wrong and oldfashioned 2000 years old naive nonsense.
It seems that 'agape love' has become some sort of an idol. You claim to worship Jesus Christ, you claim that He IS agape love, but where does He actually say that of Himself?
When He says He testifies of this world that it's deeds are evil (John 7:7) I don't see that anywhere in your agape love theology. When He calls to repentance, turning from sin, I don't see that in your agape love message either. When He warns for hell, where the fire isn't quenched and the worm doesn't die.. well you get my point. You're not following the true Biblical Jesus Christ, He came to save sinners, He came to preach repentance and faith. He came to fulfil the Law and the Prophets, not abolish them.
You are not following the Christ of the Bible, you're following your own idol of agape love, very unstably "supported" by a few Bible verses and mainly your own experiences and opinions. And anything in the Bible that contradicts it, you just dismiss because it doesn't fit your spiritual agape love convictions.
How do I know your message not from God? It contradicts the Bible and the saints experience completely. Even Paul called the Law good and himself a sinner incapable of keeping it. Yet because he consents to the Law that it is good and holy, he does not will the sin anymore. God has changed his will, his heart, to hate sin and love Gods Law. Before he was blind to Gods Law as a pharisee, he thought he was serving God and blind to his sin. Just as you are now thinking you are serving God with the anti-Biblical proclamation of agape love.
But just as Paul your will has to be renewed, instead of very sophistically trying to deny the Law and deny Gods Word, humble yourself before Gods Word. And like Paul consent to the Law that it is good, and admit that you are totally incapable of keeping it. Then your will can be changed, to love Gods Law and sorrow over sin, and to bring you to the true Jesus Christ that fulfilled that law you are trying to abolish. I pray God will bring you down in your own pride of 'agape love', and bring you to Jesus Christ for your salvation.
Then you will know true agape love, for God so loved the world that He gave His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 7:14-20 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
If you do not love yourself, who or what is your greatest adversary?
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that the trouble may be that you are not paying attention when the nature of "agape" is explained.
13For you have been called to live in freedom, my brothers and sisters. But don’t use your freedom to satisfy your sinful nature. Instead, use your freedom to serve one another in love. 14For the whole law can be summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”c 15But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! Beware of destroying one another.
Amen!They do not understand the difference between obedience and agape love as motives for behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
No, the law is a poor substitute for agape love which would eliminate any need for law if it were universally practiced. Laws are for worldly human problems, not spiritual ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RainMusic
Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: "Love your neighbor as yourself." - James 2:8
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanokh
Our Lord warned for lawlessness mystic. Matthew 24:12 "Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Hebrews 1:8-9 But of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of Your kingdom. "YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
You're really on a dangerous road downhill if you love lawlessness and hate righteousness, which you do under the cover of 'agape love'.
This is what I was referring to, nate. They simply do not know what is wrong about obedience as a motive. When you are responding in obedience to a law, you are primarily motivated by concern for yourself and avoiding the consequences of not obeying. When you are motivated by agape love, you are motivated by a concern for the well-being of everyone involved. The difference is not trivial. Obedience is motivated by selfishness, the other by love. God IS agape love, so that is what He wants you to be motivated by.
As long as you are focused on selfish obedience and punishment, wrath, vengeance, etc. you will remain in fear no matter what you say. Fear casts out love. Agape love cast out all fear and you are truly free in Christ's love. I do not love lawlessness. I just love and the law is irrelevant. I am not motivated by selfishness or concern for the consequences of disobeying a law. I am concerned by not loving and repent whenever I don't.
If you do not love yourself, who or what is your greatest adversary?
You got it upside down. Self-love is our greatest adversary, it loves 'self' and sin more than the God that created us. And satan thrives on our self-love because we just love to feel so important and big. We are willing to sell our soul for a little temporal pleasure and fame that feeds our self-love, even though it'll cost us dearly in eternal life, that is how blinded we are by our self-love to the point that we choke in it.
But humbling ourselves and loving Jesus Christ is the Gospel. It's not all about us, it's about Christ. Paul called himself a wretched man, but he was a most blessed wretch saved by amazing grace.
Romans 7:24-25 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
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