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Sure you have. You want to destroy the right of religious freedom of good heart Christian business owners who simply do not want to get involved in the grossly immoral same sex weddings. Your side wants to force them to violate their morals or be punished so severely that they have everything taken away from them.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Theologically speaking, if God is NOT counting our sins against us thanks to what Jesus accomplished, why on earth are YOU doing so???? Why do you think you must be God's enforcer?
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Refusing to provide a wedding cake to a SS couple is trying to punish them for their "sin." Supporting the refusal to provide the cake is supporting the punishment for their "sin." How is that NOT acting as God's enforcer over "sin" that God is NOT counting against us?
Explain why you support condemning what you assume is "sin" that God is NOT counting against us anyway, Jeff?
Last edited by MysticPhD; 10-29-2019 at 03:51 PM..
The Constitution guarantees that the government can not force us to violate our religious beliefs and that is exactly what you are demanding on the altar of this vague term called "discrimination". You don't have the right to get your way every way and every place. The real world doesn't work that way. These businesses certainly did not know they would be forced to violate their beliefs down the road when they opened.
That's not what the Constitution says. In general, you have the right to practice your religion, and no government religion will be created. A one point, a judge had to make a list of what is included in the legitimate practice of religion. Operating a business was not on the list.
The Constitution guarantees that the government can not force us to violate our religious beliefs and that is exactly what you are demanding on the altar of this vague term called "discrimination". You don't have the right to get your way every way and every place. The real world doesn't work that way. These businesses certainly did not know they would be forced to violate their beliefs down the road when they opened.
"Vague" term? Discrimination is not vague in this case, Jeff. If your ignorant, bigoted, backwards bakers turn away a gay couple, that is discrimination. Same thing if a gay person were to turn away a straight couple. I hate to break it to you buddy, but religious freedom isn't a get out of jail free card. It says the government can't make any laws establishing a religion, or stop the free exercise of it, not that they can't make business owners follows laws. Discriminating against people has nothing to do with the "free exercise" of your religion, unless you are saying a fundamental part of your religion is discriminating against others. Otherwise, your free exercise hasn’t been infringed upon, because no one is stopping you from worshiping or congregating.
The fact is, if we were to do as you propose, then it would open everyone up to a litany of discrimination issues and problems. All because you want to allow people who have a business open to the public, to turn away gay people because they are ignorant, backwards bigots. I suppose you are also fine with every other religion doing whatever they want at all times as well then?? Something tell me you aren’t, and you are just being a hypocrite who wants special privileges for your own.
"Vague" term? Discrimination is not vague in this case, Jeff. If your ignorant, bigoted, backwards bakers turn away a gay couple, that is discrimination. Same thing if a gay person were to turn away a straight couple. I hate to break it to you buddy, but religious freedom isn't a get out of jail free card. It says the government can't make any laws establishing a religion, or stop the free exercise of it, not that they can't make business owners follows laws. Discriminating against people has nothing to do with the "free exercise" of your religion, unless you are saying a fundamental part of your religion is discriminating against others. Otherwise, your free exercise hasn’t been infringed upon, because no one is stopping you from worshiping or congregating.
It's not discrimination when you come in and make a custom request. It most certainly is vague. After all, how far do you take it to be satisfied that gay people are receiving equal treatment? If a store gives a close parking spot to handicap people, must they now give a close spot to gay people? Oh but that's not equal treatment!! I suspect you would not be satisfied until it is taken to ridiculous extremes. My religion is that we don't want to get involved with immoral ceremonies. Has nothing to do with individuals.
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Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
The fact is, if we were to do as you propose, then it would open everyone up to a litany of discrimination issues and problems. All because you want to allow people who have a business open to the public, to turn away gay people because they are ignorant, backwards bigots. I suppose you are also fine with every other religion doing whatever they want at all times as well then?? Something tell me you aren’t, and you are just being a hypocrite who wants special privileges for your own.
Only because your side must demand that we all submit and bow before the gay agenda. Why must we be told to tolerant your lifestyle yet the same tolerance can't be given to the Christian business owners? In every case, the gay couple had absolutely zero problem getting services done for their weddings. When we go with your way, it only creates a confusing mess of parameters and coming up with new definitions and categories like the father in Texas being forced to accept his young child's transgender surgery against his wishes.
"Vague" term? Discrimination is not vague in this case, Jeff. If your ignorant, bigoted, backwards bakers turn away a gay couple, that is discrimination. Same thing if a gay person were to turn away a straight couple. I hate to break it to you buddy, but religious freedom isn't a get out of jail free card. It says the government can't make any laws establishing a religion, or stop the free exercise of it, not that they can't make business owners follows laws. Discriminating against people has nothing to do with the "free exercise" of your religion, unless you are saying a fundamental part of your religion is discriminating against others. Otherwise, your free exercise hasn’t been infringed upon, because no one is stopping you from worshiping or congregating.
The fact is, if we were to do as you propose, then it would open everyone up to a litany of discrimination issues and problems. All because you want to allow people who have a business open to the public, to turn away gay people because they are ignorant, backwards bigots. I suppose you are also fine with every other religion doing whatever they want at all times as well then?? Something tell me you aren’t, and you are just being a hypocrite who wants special privileges for your own.
This is so true, and why we need secular laws to be completely independent of religion. What about religions that forbid men from having contact with women? If a woman walks into an establishment and a male of a particular religion refuses to serve her on religious grounds? Is that okay? I used to know extreme Christian fundamentalists who would not step foot into someone's home that had Christmas decorations. They viewed it as "pagan." Imagine if someone like that was an EMT and they refused to enter a home for that reason. If you just think about it for a few minutes, it becomes clear that if we allow people to not serve others in a professional capacity because of their religion, it will be a nightmare for a pluralistic society. Especially a society where the faster growing religions are the more dogmatic factions of Christianity and Islam.
I'll never understand this cake issue, or how this baker was able to function baking cakes for sinners and sinful parties all these years until a gay wedding came along.
It's not discrimination when you come in and make a custom request. It most certainly is vague. After all, how far do you take it to be satisfied that gay people are receiving equal treatment? If a store gives a close parking spot to handicap people, must they now give a close spot to gay people? Oh but that's not equal treatment!! I suspect you would not be satisfied until it is taken to ridiculous extremes. My religion is that we don't want to get involved with immoral ceremonies. Has nothing to do with individuals.
Every single wedding cake is custom. The only difference in this case, is one has a gay couple, and the others don't. That is discrimination, no matter how many times you try to say otherwise. A handicap spot is hardly the same as refusing to sell a cake that you sell to everyone else to a gay couple, Jeffery. In that case, there are medical reasons for giving handicap spaces to people who need them. What is it with you and these comparisons that aren't even remotely similar?
If your religion forbids you to make a cake, then you shouldn't sell cakes. And if your religion is important enough to you for you to openly discriminate against a gay couple, then surely this is no big deal, right? You can't separate the individual from a ceremony either. If the participants weren't gay, your bigoted buddies wouldn't have turned them away. This makes it about the sex of the participants, not the ceremony. Period.
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Originally Posted by jeffbase40
Only because your side must demand that we all submit and bow before the gay agenda. Why must we be told to tolerant your lifestyle yet the same tolerance can't be given to the Christian business owners? In every case, the gay couple had absolutely zero problem getting services done for their weddings. When we go with your way, it only creates a confusing mess of parameters and coming up with new definitions and categories like the father in Texas being forced to accept his young child's transgender surgery against his wishes.
Are we turning Christians away for being Christian? Are we advocating for you not to be able to get married, or saying there should be nothing protecting you from being fired for being Christian? Not being tolerant of bigotry, ignorance, and discrimination is not being intolerant of your "lifestyle". Unless... Are you saying these are part of your "lifestyle"?
I have already told you that I don't agree with that mess in Texas, and no one here has said otherwise either. So why do you keep bringing up things that no one you are speaking to agrees with? The woman likely has a mental illness, and it is now affecting her child. Maybe if the lawmakers in this country would allow for better health insurance, this could have been avoided. Funnily enough, people like you fight against that as well...
This is so true, and why we need secular laws to be completely independent of religion. What about religions that forbid men from having contact with women? If a woman walks into an establishment and a male of a particular religion refuses to serve her on religious grounds? Is that okay? I used to know extreme Christian fundamentalists who would not step foot into someone's home that had Christmas decorations. They viewed it as "pagan." Imagine if someone like that was an EMT and they refused to enter a home for that reason. If you just think about it for a few minutes, it becomes clear that if we allow people to not serve others in a professional capacity because of their religion, it will be a nightmare for a pluralistic society. Especially a society where the faster growing religions are the more dogmatic factions of Christianity and Islam.
But people like Jeff just don't get it. They don't understand the can of worms it would open, if we were to allow Christian business owners to determine who is worthy of being served. They don't understand that we can't just say, "Okay, you can discriminate against gay people, but no one else!". You would have business owners turning away people away and saying, "My religion says I can't serve black people" or "My religion says I can't serve fat people sodas" or whatever else they could think up. Just serve the dang cake and move on. It isn't going to hurt you, and if your god is so small and petty as to hold it against you, when you were simply being a good member of society, then that is a mighty stupid god you worship.
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Originally Posted by kmom2
I'll never understand this cake issue, or how this baker was able to function baking cakes for sinners and sinful parties all these years until a gay wedding came along.
Because they clearly don't care about other sins, such as those adulterous couples on their 3rd/4th/etc marriages. They are fine with that. They are fine making cakes for people who had kids out of wedlock, lived together for years, pre-marital sex, and all other things in between. The point is, they are hypocrites, each and every one of them. A cake is a cake is a cake. The "custom" argument doesn't work at all, seeing as how ALL wedding cakes are custom. So unless they only do "stock" cakes for weddings, that is just an excuse used to justify their ignorance, bigotry, and prejudice.
Actually, it does. The Constitution was put in place to limit the Federal Government. Not individuals. Nor does it suggest that a state cannot have an official religion.
You really should do some research. Seriously. When you spout off with stuff like this it just makes you look uninformed to anyone that actually has a clue. There will be those that will always kiss your backside just because, but seriously. The Tenth Amendment actually says that.
The many, many excellent posts in this thread expose the very visceral revulsion that is truly behind the supposed concern over what is assumed to be "sin" that God is NOT counting against any of us. There is no real thought, empathy, compassion, or agape love in the strident condemnation of SS weddings. Hiding behind primitive Bible ignorance is no excuse.
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