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...i drop in to this thread every so often to see if there's any new ideas put out...i see the expired horse is still being mercilessly flogged....carry on...
And, it needn't be. There is nothing in the Christian 'Holy Book' to warrant any form of demeaning discussion of anyone who happens to have been born 'gay'. I've stated this from day one and nothing from this and the previous thread has altered my stance on the matter of Christianity and its relationship to the LGBTQ community. The 'Christian Church' needs to let it go and begin - possibly for the very first time - to be the Church that Jesus would approve of if He were to return.
"Vague" term? Discrimination is not vague in this case, Jeff. If your ignorant, bigoted, backwards bakers turn away a gay couple, that is discrimination. Same thing if a gay person were to turn away a straight couple. I hate to break it to you buddy, but religious freedom isn't a get out of jail free card. It says the government can't make any laws establishing a religion, or stop the free exercise of it, not that they can't make business owners follows laws. Discriminating against people has nothing to do with the "free exercise" of your religion, unless you are saying a fundamental part of your religion is discriminating against others. Otherwise, your free exercise hasn’t been infringed upon, because no one is stopping you from worshiping or congregating.
The objective of the "establishment" clause of the U.S. Constitution is to prevent "excessive entanglement" of the government in religion. See Lemon v. Kurtzman, 91 S.Ct. 2105, 2114, 403 U.S. 602, 619 (U.S.Pa. 1971) ("A comprehensive, discriminating, and continuing state surveillance will inevitably be required to ensure that these restrictions are obeyed and the First Amendment otherwise respected. Unlike a book, a teacher cannot be inspected once so as to determine the extent and intent of his or her personal beliefs and subjective acceptance of the limitations imposed by the First Amendment. These prophylactic contacts will involve excessive and enduring entanglement between state and church."). This case concerned an effort by Rhode Island and Pennsylvania to subsidize teaching of secular subjects in private religious schools. Essentially the government cannot get heavily involved in religion. A store may not "turn away" a paying customer absent disorderly conduct. But requiring the making of custom products would entangle the government in religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImissThe90's
The fact is, if we were to do as you propose, then it would open everyone up to a litany of discrimination issues and problems. All because you want to allow people who have a business open to the public, to turn away gay people because they are ignorant, backwards bigots. I suppose you are also fine with every other religion doing whatever they want at all times as well then?? Something tell me you aren’t, and you are just being a hypocrite who wants special privileges for your own.
Turning away people is not an issue. Private is still private, not "anything goes."
Because they clearly don't care about other sins, such as those adulterous couples on their 3rd/4th/etc marriages. They are fine with that. They are fine making cakes for people who had kids out of wedlock, lived together for years, pre-marital sex, and all other things in between. The point is, they are hypocrites, each and every one of them. A cake is a cake is a cake. The "custom" argument doesn't work at all, seeing as how ALL wedding cakes are custom. So unless they only do "stock" cakes for weddings, that is just an excuse used to justify their ignorance, bigotry, and prejudice.
The default position should be to grant private business much freedom in the way they operate. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was of necessity an exception; the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments provided that Congress shall pass effectuating legislation. There is no parallel provisions for other suspect categories. Need, for example, my synagogue admit Catholics as dues-paying worshipers?
That's not what the Constitution says. In general, you have the right to practice your religion, and no government religion will be created. A one point, a judge had to make a list of what is included in the legitimate practice of religion. Operating a business was not on the list.
Actually, it does. The Constitution was put in place to limit the Federal Government. Not individuals. Nor does it suggest that a state cannot have an official religion.
You really should do some research. Seriously. When you spout off with stuff like this it just makes you look uninformed to anyone that actually has a clue. There will be those that will always kiss your backside just because, but seriously. The Tenth Amendment actually says that.
The First Amendment has been made applicable to the states via the 14th Amendment. See West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, 63 S.Ct. 1178, 1186, 319 U.S. 624, 639 (U.S. 1943) (“The test of legislation which collides with the Fourteenth Amendment, because it also collides with the principles of the First, is much more definite than the test when only the Fourteenth is involved. Much of the vagueness of the due process clause disappears when the specific prohibitions of the First become its standard. …It is important to note that while it is the Fourteenth Amendment which bears directly upon the State it is the more specific limiting principles of the First Amendment that finally govern this case.”).
Thus, the Constitution now places limits on State governments, even if it didn't when George Washington was inaugurated President in New York City in 1790.
Yes. And I'm confused why someone calling herself a Christian would not believe Scripture. And she would post anti-Scripture stuff on the forum titled "Christianity".
How do you know what Jesus said? Wait...now you believe Scripture? How convenient that you believe the stuff about Jesus that you like! Interesting how that works.
I will have only one answer for anything I've done. Jesus. He died on the cross to pay for my sin. It's only through Jesus that I can please God--not anything I've done. Again....you claim to be a Christian, I'm confused why you wouldn't know that
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Originally Posted by mensaguy
This is simply a description of the fundamental differences in how some of you approach Christianity. You said "not believe Scripture." Well, a lot of people believe Scripture, but don't happen to interpret it the same way you do. That doesn't mean they don't believe Scripture. It's the same when people say "the Bible says." Well, lots and lots of what is printed in the Bible is interpreted in many different ways. That doesn't mean one is right and all the others are wrong. Sometimes people say "Christianity teaches ..." Well, no. Some denomination, or some preacher may teach that, but there si very, very little that all of Christianity agrees on. When you use phrases like "believe Scripture," "The Bible says," or "Christianity teaches," you are dividing Christians, not unifying them. If any of you use those phrases, you should think about whether you are dividing or unifying your Christian brothers and sisters.
The fact that some of you obviously have different views of Christianity and different interpretations of the Bible seems to have gotten lost in the discourse here. There is nothing wrong with having differences, but we should be aware that these differences don't automatically mean that one is right or another is wrong.
The fact that some of you obviously have different views of Christianity and different interpretations of the Bible seems to have gotten lost in the discourse here. There is nothing wrong with having differences, but we should be aware that these differences don't automatically mean that one is right or another is wrong.
Rejection of most Bible text is not really an "interpretation", it is a dismissal. For example, my understanding of the Quran is not an interpretation, it is a rejection.
I could insist I am a muslim, while using every opportunity to argue against everything the islam teaches. Not only would it make zero sense, it would probably get me in lot of trouble among the muslim community.
However, in this day and age people are free to "identify" as anything they want. I could walk into a mosque, and proclaim that I identify as a muslim, and when people ask if I believe mohammed was a prophet, I could say "nah, he was just another ignorant savage". No big deal.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-31-2019 at 06:50 AM..
The default position should be to grant private business much freedom in the way they operate. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was of necessity an exception; the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments provided that Congress shall pass effectuating legislation. There is no parallel provisions for other suspect categories. Need, for example, my synagogue admit Catholics as dues-paying worshipers?
Is a synagogue a business?
Now, a more applicable example is, let's say a member of your synagogue owns a bakery that makes wedding cakes. Would it be discrimination if they refuse to sell those cakes to Catholics, because they are Catholic?
Now, a more applicable example is, let's say a member of your synagogue owns a bakery that makes wedding cakes. Would it be discrimination if they refuse to sell those cakes to Catholics, because they are Catholic?
Why can't we have a law where a business owner is allowed a moral or religious exception as long as they do not provide an essential need or service?
Why can't we have a law where a business owner is allowed a moral or religious exception as long as they do not provide an essential need or service?
And in order for that business to operate, they must have a sign prominently displayed in the entry to their buildings and on the home page of their website which states which groups of people they are unwilling to serve?
Back to the good ol' days, huh Jeff?
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