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No doubt you have heard he Gospel message, but feel there is nothing to be saved from. Your remarks on having nothing to atone for explains that.
So most likely you will live your life and whatever happens will happen, you will die as all of us do, and that is that! Life was just something you had to do, you had no choice in the matter, and now it's over!
I think all of us have wondered why God doesn't just show Himself to each one of us. Maybe come to us one by one and take us to heaven, show us His throne, do some of His magic for us to see, and then say that He loves us and wants to share all that He has with us.
But He didn't choose that way! He chose to prove us by blind faith. None of us have seen Him, none of us have any documented facts to go by except what He has given us through others before us who did see Him in the form of Jesus Christ and wrote in a Book what they witnessed. So how do we know this is true?
It has always been amazing to me how that two people can sit on a pew in church and hear the exact same thing from a preacher, how that Jesus Christ came to this world to redeem man. One breaks out in tears and walks forward at the alter call filled with sorrow for his sins, while the other is wondering what is going on, not effected at all! I can hear the Calvinists saying Amen, I can answer that, lol.
It just happened to be that I was one of those that was filled with sorrow for my sins. Personally, I had heard the Gospel many times, I understood it, I thought, but it never really had any effect on me. As I have said before, I developed a very serious drinking problem and found I couldn't part with it. Being that I realized from the things I was doing, if I didn't stop drinking I was not going to be here much longer. Many were afraid of me, it was just a matter of time before someone put a gun to the back of my head and pulled the trigger. I would have deserved it! I should be in Hell right now, but the Lord had mercy on me!
It is my opinion that one must know who he is, what he is without Christ, before he can know Christ! One must know and admit they are a sinner in order to find mercy. Without knowing, and then admitting our sin against God, there will be no effect from the Gospel.
When this happens you will know there is a God in heaven, it's how I know there is a God in heaven. I felt the weight of the world lifted off my shoulders and became a new man. The Holy Spirit confirmed in my heart that Jesus Christ is my Saviour.
I'll suggest it may have something to do with you expecting the reaction to be the same as yours to be genuine.
I'm 8.5 years sober myself. I experienced moments of sorrow, grief, and transcendence as I assume most people do when they begin to recover. My transcendence moment came at my lowest point of beating myself up. Getting rid of self-loathing is the point of recovery IMO. The people who don't understand are probably people who never were sick in this first place. It's a pretty hard sell to convince someone who is well that they need the cure.
In my world, I did all that. I was the biggest POS on the entire planet. I fell to my knees when trying to drink myself to death ceased to become an option. I was shown those thoughts I had were false. I saw where they came from and I rejected them. I was shown the truth about my behavior as well as others. I was given complete acceptance right where I stood. Why would I keep calling myself a sinner after all that? If I was shown I had nothing to atone for then I'm taking that deal.
The scripture is filled with those who contended for the faith. They also had their problems with resistance.
So you think I'm creating my own problems with my defense of the faith? I wonder what the Lord would think of me if I became silent in that defense? The offenders of the Gospel don't give up, they don't back down, why should I?
What I have expressed to you is my desire, not reality! The majority of this world is against the things of God, they don't want to hear it. They are happy in their sin. They will fight against the things I believe in and teach to justify what they believe, the pleasure of sin.
If nothing else I hope we of the faith give you pause to think of this life, why you are here, what is this life all about. Hopefully you can come to the conclusion that there is more to this life than living and dying.
The majority are not opposed to that of God, rather that of "extreme" religious fundamentalism.
Those that divide and separate, believing they are doing God a service by condemning others.
The majority are not opposed to that of God, rather that of "extreme" religious fundamentalism.
Those that divide and separate, believing they are doing God a service by condemning others.
If Charlie and ?JBF would abandon their wrathful God, hellfire, and eternal damnation, their knowledge of scripture would make them awesome advocates for Christ instead of fear-mongers for the enemy of God's agape love. It would take them some time to reinterpret the scriptures using the Holy Spirit of agpe love and forgiveness, but it would be worth it.
How do you separate your beliefs about Christ from Christ? Are you sure that thinking your loved ones will be tormented for eternity is actually loving Christ? What if it's just loving your beliefs more than your loved ones? You can still believe in Christ you would just be changing your viewpoint about something you once believed about Him. I think both yourself and the Watchtower are misusing those scriptures and the result is turning people away from love.
Since I obtain my belief about Christ from the holy scriptures, I am not going to change my beliefs to something that is in denial of what is taught by holy scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie24
The difference between you and me is that I chose to believe and you didn't!
An example of the mind of Christ is my awareness of, and also any other believer what Christ has done for mankind. That effects everything I do, every thought I have. It creates a new man with a different outlook on life in general.
Where I once thought only of Charlie and the ones close to me, I now have a heart for all who are suffering, lost in this world without knowing why they are here.
It's hard, L8 to show compassion and love for the fellow man in this forum with so much unbelief. I find myself battling the unbelief of scripture much more than I care to do. I would rather be building and edifying my Brothers and Sisters in Christ, to encourage them in the things of God. To remind them of the promises of God for the faithful who have trusted in Him against all the odds this world throws at them.
It may be expedient for us to focus on edifying the body of Christ with our posts and to let the scriptures refute some of the false doctrine on these boards as we expound upon them and give messages on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
I'll say the same thing to you that I said to my mom when she shunned me. "this only makes sense if you are right."
Do you have a sense that I'm in need of saving? I feel angry at times (understandably so consider the pain it is masking) but I don't feel like I have anything to atone for. People did hurtful things to me out of their ignorance and I do hurtful things out of mine. The only way to stop that is to try and gain insight. I don't hold anything against them so I can't hold anything against myself.
The difference in our conclusions starts way before the God question. Some look out into the world and see sin and some look into the world and see love. I think both are there but it's how we perceive that will determine which information makes it through. I don't think that's a choice we make. I think that just is. I am extremely grateful I pulled the love card.
Edit: my goal here is to gain insight. I also would like to show people what an apostate is.
I think that you are an apostate only as concerning the religion of the Jehovah's Witnesses. I think that you can believe in Christ as being the God who created you and as being the Saviour of you, from your sins, and if you did that, you would still be an apostate from the religion of the Jehovah's Witnesses; but you would be saved to the bone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You REFUSE to use the "mind of Christ" Jesus revealed on the Cross, Charlie. You keep using the mind of our ancestors who misunderstood God. We should be grateful for what Jesus accomplished on the Cross to provide salvation for us from permanent separation from God. But it is NOT necessary to believe YOUR wrathful interpretation of WHY He saved us to appreciate that He saved us from our sins.
It is true He saved us, but it was by achieving the perfect love and forgiveness we could never achieve under the worst possible conditions imaginable. His death and rebirth as Spirit connects us all to God and He abides with us as the Comforter to guide us to the Truth God has "written in our hearts."
Jesus saved us by dying in our place, taking the just penalty for our sins on the Cross.
This is the only gospel of Jesus Christ; anything else mandates a curse for the one who preaches any other gospel (Galatians 1:6-9).
Quote:
Originally Posted by L8Gr8Apost8
I'll suggest it may have something to do with you expecting the reaction to be the same as yours to be genuine.
I'm 8.5 years sober myself. I experienced moments of sorrow, grief, and transcendence as I assume most people do when they begin to recover. My transcendence moment came at my lowest point of beating myself up. Getting rid of self-loathing is the point of recovery IMO. The people who don't understand are probably people who never were sick in this first place. It's a pretty hard sell to convince someone who is well that they need the cure.
In my world, I did all that. I was the biggest POS on the entire planet. I fell to my knees when trying to drink myself to death ceased to become an option. I was shown those thoughts I had were false. I saw where they came from and I rejected them. I was shown the truth about my behavior as well as others. I was given complete acceptance right where I stood. Why would I keep calling myself a sinner after all that? If I was shown I had nothing to atone for then I'm taking that deal.
You could call yourself a forgiven sinner.
It is written,
1Ti 1:15, This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
If Charlie and ?JBF would abandon their wrathful God, hellfire, and eternal damnation, their knowledge of scripture would make them awesome advocates for Christ instead of fear-mongers for the enemy of God's agape love. It would take them some time to reinterpret the scriptures using the Holy Spirit of agape love and forgiveness, but it would be worth it.
I would only say to this that I know the agape love of the Lord only because of the fact that He died for my sins, taking my place and receiving the just penalty for my sins that I deserved.
The price that He paid for me was extravagant; and the gift that He gives to me is extravagant.
You deny that the Father has emotion / wrath / anger / justice concerning sin;
I would only say to this that God does in fact have emotions and that He dealt with those emotions from the perspective of being One who is truly love in His very essence. He came down to earth Himself to bear the penalty for our sins...He executed justice upon Himself as concerning the penalty that we owed to Him...and He satisfied His own anger without exhibiting it towards us; by projecting His anger onto His only begotten Son. All those who believe in Him are rescued from the anger and wrath that God has towards sin, therefore.
Since I obtain my belief about Christ from the holy scriptures, I am not going to change my beliefs to something that is in denial of what is taught by holy scripture.
Of course not, you have already been indoctrinated with a variety of false teachings, and no one is going to change your mind. LMAO
Of course not, you have already been indoctrinated with a variety of false teachings, and no one is going to change your mind. LMAO
No, there aren't any false teaching in what I have been "indoctrinated" by.
But you are certainly welcome to try and expose any teaching of mine that is false, by right-clicking on the top right number of the post where I posted a false teaching, clicking "Copy Link Address" and then pasting it to a post where you must then proceed to show how that teaching is false using holy scripture.
If you cannot do that, then your accusation is found baseless.
Of course not, you have already been indoctrinated with a variety of false teachings, and no one is going to change your mind. LMAO
Quote:
Originally Posted by justbyfaith
No, there aren't any false teaching in what I have been "indoctrinated" by.
But you are certainly welcome to try and expose any teaching of mine that is false, by right-clicking on the top right number of the post where I posted a false teaching, clicking "Copy Link Address" and then pasting it to a post where you must then proceed to show how that teaching is false using holy scripture.
If you cannot do that, then your accusation is found baseless.
You haven't a clue about Church history and the false teachings that you have swallowed. And I did that thirty-years ago with more intelligent people; and have no intention of wasting my time with you. I have already seen your willful ignorance and your refusal to hear anything that anyone has to say to you. And, I do not have the patience that Mystics or others have in dealing with your repetitious nonsense.
Of course not, you have already been indoctrinated with a variety of false teachings, and no one is going to change your mind. LMAO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade
You haven't a clue about Church history and the false teachings that you have swallowed. And I did that thirty-years ago with more intelligent people; and have no intention of wasting my time with you. I have already seen your willful ignorance and your refusal to hear anything that anyone has to say to you. And, I do not have the patience that Mystics or others have in dealing with your repetitious nonsense.
It is not so much patience, Jer. I believe JBF has the requisite knowledge of the Bible to see that the DOMINANT context of those who interpreted scripture was of a wrathful God. He is just not willing to risk changing that context. Even Jesus as God in the flesh was insufficient to remove that automatic context. For those indoctrinated to fear God and damnation, it is extremely difficult to risk changing that context.
That is why it was especially useful in controlling the primitive masses and amassing power over them. If JBF could only be convinced to see the scriptures through the lens of Jesus Christ on the Cross and His agape love and forgiveness, he would be an awesome evangel of Christ instead of His adversary.
I think that that scripture applies more than anything else to the ones who receive Christ when members of their family are against it.
it is not saying that we ought not to love our family; but that we ought to love Christ over and above our family.
" Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"-Matthew 34,35
I wasn't born and raised a Jehovah's Witness but I am now. However, my understanding of that Scripture hasn't changed and I agree as you do that it is NOT saying we ought not to love our family. Rather, there will be family members who will oppose one's attempt to be a disciple of Christ.
I want to add there is no "liking" a Scripture, in the sense of being gleeful or self righteous, when the topic concerns family relationships or loss of a spiritual relationship we once had.
" Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law"-Matthew 34,35
I wasn't born and raised a Jehovah's Witness but I am now. However, my understanding of that Scripture hasn't changed and I agree as you do that it is NOT saying we ought not to love our family. Rather, there will be family members who will oppose one's attempt to be a disciple of Christ.
I want to add there is no "liking" a Scripture, in the sense of being gleeful or self righteous, when the topic concerns family relationships or loss of a spiritual relationship we once had.
I see another layer to that Scripture
It’s not just JW’s that this happens to, BF was born into a Catholic family and is now a Baptist, Mike now a Catholic raised Protestant, many on the forum were raised in a denomination and have left their religious “home” either voluntarily or been evicted because of doctrinal issues
The point is that the Christian is not supposed to hold onto that initial natural religious affiliation, they are to see past those natural/temporal brother/sister relationships and see that all Christians are brothers/sisters even those “orphaned” unaffiliated ones
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If Charlie and ?JBF would abandon their wrathful God, hellfire, and eternal damnation, their knowledge of scripture would make them awesome advocates for Christ instead of fear-mongers for the enemy of God's agape love. It would take them some time to reinterpret the scriptures using the Holy Spirit of agpe love and forgiveness, but it would be worth it.
