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If one doesn't accept that Jesus is the Second Person of the Trinity - and thus God since each Person of the Trinity has the fullness of God - I think the only biblically defensible position is that of the Jehovah's Witnesses, whereby Jesus is the firstborn of creation. Multiple verses, including Jesus' own words, make clear that he was with the Father before the creation and it was him (Jesus) for whom and through whom all was created (or, in the JW view, all else was created). There is certainly no room for the view that Jesus was the Son only by virtue of the Virgin Birth or became the Son at his baptism by John. At a minimum, he was preexistent and special enough to be called divine.
If I simply sit and read the NT with no preconceived notions, I frankly end up with the JW position. This was true before I had any idea what the JW position was. (I have read vast swaths of Christian history, theology and apologetics over the past 25 or 30 years, so please don't waste your time trying to educate me.) As anyone familiar with the history of the doctrine knows, the Trinity is a heavily negotiated doctrine with lots of intrigue and political shenanigans (and even violence) surrounding it. For one brief period, the official position shifted from the Trinity back to Arianism. Given this history and the less-than-compelling biblical support, I find it impossible to say that the JW position is flatly incorrect or un-Christian.
Because the Trinity is so well-established in Christian tradition and has considerable theological appeal, I accept the the doctrine without insisting on it as a Christian essential. The essential, I believe, is that Jesus is "divine" (at least in the sense of being the firstborn of creation) and that his Incarnation, Crucifixion and Resurrection were sufficient to accomplish God's plan of salvation.
So are you a JW or not? I'd never gotten that impression from any of your earlier posts.
“ I and the Father are one.” John 10:30
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
“ …Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. …” John 14:9
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Way
Oh, good grief, you're one of those.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meerkat2
I think it is more about randomly picking verses from various books and not understanding what they relate to
The cut and paste method
It may seem like randomly picking verses but there are credible sources that do backup the OPs understanding of how Jesus should be viewed.
John 1:1 is one such verse that seems to be the go to verse for those that believe Jesus is coequal with God.
But the source below is coming from someone who is academically qualified to render a credible opinion on the translation of John 1:1 and does not back a particularly doctrine or ideology:
Also, take note of the following from Stanford.edu
Again not favoring a particular doctrine or ideology:
"No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
"A common strategy for defending monotheism in this period is to emphasize the unique divinity of the Father. Thus Origen (ca. 186-255),"
"The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit... (Origen, First, 33-4 [I.3])."-https://stanford.library.sydney.edu.au/archives/win2016/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
Remember, these men, although not perfect as none of us are, had access to copies of early copies of the Bible. They lived much closer to the times of the apostles and so their understanding would be more in line with the early teachings. Not saying identical to the early teachings but certainly in contrast to Trinitarians today.
Here is something to consider. People can try explaining it to fit the Trinity concept but Paul wrote what he wrote. There are no arguments about the absence of definite articles and how it should be translated. He clearly writes that even the resurrected Jesus is not equal to God.
"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."-1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Why is it important to make sure we have a correct understanding of the relationship between the Son and God?
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you,the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."-John 17:3
Jesus half brother wrote, " Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows."-James 1:17. In line with what the prophet Malachi wrote...
"For I [am] Jehovah, I have not changed, And ye, the sons of Jacob, Ye have not been consumed."-Malachi 3:6
Many know Jesus Christ but do they know his Father?-John 17:3
It's all above my pay grade. Trinity, incarnation, atonement, original sin.....
I've been reading countless books, sermons, videos, lectures and the more I research, the more confused I get. How do missionaries even convey these ultra-complex subjects to uneducated people? I consider myself a Christian, but it's one big mystery, let me tell you. Good luck, OP.
Starting to think I'm one of those loathed "low IQ folks".
It may seem like randomly picking verses but there are credible sources that do backup the OPs understanding of how Jesus should be viewed.
John 1:1 is one such verse that seems to be the go to verse for those that believe Jesus is coequal with God.
But the source below is coming from someone who is academically qualified to render a credible opinion on the translation of John 1:1 and does not back a particularly doctrine or ideology:
Also, take note of the following from Stanford.edu
Again not favoring a particular doctrine or ideology:
"No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."
"A common strategy for defending monotheism in this period is to emphasize the unique divinity of the Father. Thus Origen (ca. 186-255),"
"The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit... (Origen, First, 33-4 [I.3])."-https://stanford.library.sydney.edu.au/archives/win2016/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
Remember, these men, although not perfect as none of us are, had access to copies of early copies of the Bible. They lived much closer to the times of the apostles and so their understanding would be more in line with the early teachings. Not saying identical to the early teachings but certainly in contrast to Trinitarians today.
Here is something to consider. People can try explaining it to fit the Trinity concept but Paul wrote what he wrote. There are no arguments about the absence of definite articles and how it should be translated. He clearly writes that even the resurrected Jesus is not equal to God.
"Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone."-1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Why is it important to make sure we have a correct understanding of the relationship between the Son and God?
"This means everlasting life, their coming to know you,the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ."-John 17:3
Jesus half brother wrote, " Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows."-James 1:17. In line with what the prophet Malachi wrote...
"For I [am] Jehovah, I have not changed, And ye, the sons of Jacob, Ye have not been consumed."-Malachi 3:6
Many know Jesus Christ but do they know his Father?-John 17:3
The issue of subjection within the godhead has absolutely nothing to do with ontology. Jesus can be subject the will of the Father while being ontologically equal with the Father. That is, while Jesus is submits to the will of the Father he still possesses all the qualities that make God God.
As for John 17:3, Jesus was saying that the Father was the only true God in contrast to the other elohim. He was not saying that the Father was the only true God in contrast to himself.
It may seem like randomly picking verses but there are credible sources that do backup the OPs understanding of how Jesus should be viewed.
John 1:1 is one such verse that seems to be the go to verse for those that believe Jesus is coequal with God.
But the source below is coming from someone who is academically qualified to render a credible opinion on the translation of John 1:1 and does not back a particularly doctrine or ideology:
Also, take note of the following from Stanford.edu
Again not favoring a particular doctrine or ideology:
”No theologian in the first three Christian centuries was a trinitarian in the sense of a believing that the one God is tripersonal, containing equally divine “persons”, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”
”A common strategy for defending monotheism in this period is to emphasize the unique divinity of the Father. Thus Origen (ca. 186-255),”
”The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit... (Origen, First, 33-4 [I.3]).”-https://stanford.library.sydney.edu.au/archives/win2016/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
Remember, these men, although not perfect as none of us are, had access to copies of early copies of the Bible. They lived much closer to the times of the apostles and so their understanding would be more in line with the early teachings. Not saying identical to the early teachings but certainly in contrast to Trinitarians today.
Here is something to consider. People can try explaining it to fit the Trinity concept but Paul wrote what he wrote. There are no arguments about the absence of definite articles and how it should be translated. He clearly writes that even the resurrected Jesus is not equal to God.
[COLOR=”Blue”]”Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”[/color]-1 Corinthians 15:24-28
Why is it important to make sure we have a correct understanding of the relationship between the Son and God?
[COLOR=”Blue”]”This means everlasting life, their coming to know you,the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.”[/color]-John 17:3
Jesus half brother wrote,[COLOR=”Blue”] ” Every good gift and every perfect present is from above, coming down from the Father of the celestial lights, who does not vary or change like the shifting shadows.”[/color]-James 1:17. In line with what the prophet Malachi wrote...
[COLOR=”blue”]”For I [am] Jehovah, I have not changed, And ye, the sons of Jacob, Ye have not been consumed.”[/color]-Malachi 3:6
Many know Jesus Christ but do they know his Father?-John 17:3
I’m not into arguing over this
However I do not see it as the JW’s see it in the separation into God is the Father called Jehovah and Jesus is his literal separate son ... what of the Holy Spirit, and what of the church which is Christ’s body who he gave his life for to redeem it?
I see a building up happening with the gospels, the epistles, then the church
The virgin birth is critical and shows both the humanity and the divinity in one “body”
And this is something that is believed by faith
The Birth of Jesus Christ
Mat 1:18**Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:19**Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Mat 1:20**But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Mat 1:21**And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22**Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23**Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mat 1:24**Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
Mat 1:25**And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
Jesus is the Christ and Lord, but first he was to be rejected by his own people (and that was not just in the 1st century - the succession that is mentioned in Corinthians was to be played out over 2000 years, the 2 days, with each generation contributing to both the building up and the falling away
There is a dispersion that precedes the gathering together
It's all above my pay grade. Trinity, incarnation, atonement, original sin.....
I've been reading countless books, sermons, videos, lectures and the more I research, the more confused I get. How do missionaries even convey these ultra-complex subjects to uneducated people? I consider myself a Christian, but it's one big mystery, let me tell you. Good luck, OP.
Starting to think I'm one of those loathed "low IQ folks".
Don’t be too hard on yourself, we are to have simple faith and we are also to learn what is put in front of us (daily bread) and not confuse the 2 together
There is a natural cloudiness and limitation that is just part of being human as we need to divide our time between Looking after our natural needs and then take a part in the religious things we are drawn to
The Scriptures are multi level/layered
Mat 10:16**Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Mat 10:17**But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
Mat 10:18**And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
Mat 10:19**But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
Mat 10:20**For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
It's all above my pay grade. Trinity, incarnation, atonement, original sin.....
I've been reading countless books, sermons, videos, lectures and the more I research, the more confused I get. How do missionaries even convey these ultra-complex subjects to uneducated people? I consider myself a Christian, but it's one big mystery, let me tell you. Good luck, OP.
Starting to think I'm one of those loathed "low IQ folks".
People make it a whole lot more complicated than God ever intended it to be.
In Gethsemane Jesus's human nature showed through when he was wracked with loneliness as his disciples fell asleep. Does God get lonely?
Then he showed natural human fear of crucifixion when he asked God to "take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done". Does God experience fear?
The moral is that although Jesus was imbued with the powerful holy spirit and was permanently logged onto God, he was still as human as anybody else and we love him all the more for it..
He IS God. But one must understand that within the Trinity there is a "hierarchy" of sorts. The Father sends the Son.
But Jesus is God, and he claimed to be God. And peopled tried to kill him because he claimed he's God.
He did not claim to be God, it's what they were projecting on him, much like what you are doing to support your belief.
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