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But you believe the creeds which say they are "co-equal." How do you reconcile that statement with Jesus' own statement that the Father is greater than He?
Mike said it as well as anyone could. Saying that the Son submits to the Father does not suggest that one is ontologically greater than the other.
Jesus is God. Scripture says he is. But Scripture also says there is only one God. The only way to reconcile those statements is that God is Trinitarian.
Mike said it as well as anyone could. Saying that the Son submits to the Father does not suggest that one is ontologically greater than the other.
Don't dance around the question, BF. The Son said that the Father is greater than He. What did He mean by that? Just a simple, straightforward answer, please.
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Jesus is God. Scripture says he is. But Scripture also says there is only one God. The only way to reconcile those statements is that God is Trinitarian.
I'm sorry, man, but that is NOT the only way to reconcile those statements. Mike, who is a Trinitarian, and I, who am not, had quite a lengthy discussion on this subject almost five years ago. He and I took the time to actually listen to each other and to come to an understanding of where we agree and where we disagree, and we discovered that we actually agreed on certain things about how we see and understand the nature of God. We had to examine the way in which we used certain words and concepts, and be open-minded enough to actually want to at least understand the rationale behind one another's reasoning. The thing is, one has to be open to actual discussion in order to be able to do this, and just telling people that you're right and they're wrong isn't how to go about it.
He IS God. But one must understand that within the Trinity there is a "hierarchy" of sorts. The Father sends the Son.
But Jesus is God, and he claimed to be God. And peopled tried to kill him because he claimed he's God.
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Originally Posted by Jerwade
He did not claim to be God, it's what they were projecting on him, much like what you are doing to support your belief.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
But Jerwade, Jesus did say (in John 10:18) with regards to his own life: "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again." What mere man, regardless of how good he might be, would have this power -- the power to prevent his life from being taken if He so desired, and the power to rise again after having died? True, the power had been given to Him by His Father, before the world began, but no mere human could do what He did -- through power that He held within Himself.
The fact that the Father had given Him this power is also a good indication that the Father is greater than the Son. This is something the early Christian creeds deny when they say they are "co-equal." The Son did His Father's will, never the other way around. The Son prayed to the Father; the Father never prayed to the Son. The Father knows when the Second Coming will be; the Son does not. Still if the scriptures say that "the Word was God," I have a hard time understanding the rationale behind people saying that He was just a good man and nothing more.
I believe his faith was in his God to raise him from the dead, as a dead person cannot raise himself. And, as you have indicated, he prayed to the Father, so in your view did he actually die as a man, trusting that God would raise him from the dead? Perhaps, our difference is that I do not believe in the virgin birth of Catholicism, any more than I do the Trinity or that of three gods in one, for there is only One God and the Father of all humanity, whether alive or dead.
And, I do not believe in demons, the devil or Satan, as well as that of eternal damnation.
I have said this before, and will say it again as a side note: Adversity is a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature. And the Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role (an adversary). Whereas, an accuser (slanderer, devil) is known for his unrighteous disposition. However, the principalities and powers of unholy (human) messengers, had inculcated the doctrines of demons, devils and Satan in the early views of men; falsely fostering and prospering them. Truth becomes known, when deception falls away (that of self-induced blindness). Christ denounced these doctrines and traditions of men within the Spirit of truth as the ego driven desires are within men, resist them.
Those who live according to the human nature have their mind set on what their nature desires (that of a King to rule over them) but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit wants: Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world (that which extends deep down from the surface - yet, is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to all humanity); the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition of the soul and the temperament within that of other men.
...And, I do not believe in demons, the devil or Satan, as well as that of eternal damnation...
Start a new thread and we can have fun discussing it.
For example we could say that satan used you like a ventriloquists dummy to say that through your mouth..
Jesus is God. Scripture says he is. But Scripture also says there is only one God. The only way to reconcile those statements is that God is Trinitarian.
Ah, so if you're saying God and Jesus are separate entities, good for you..
Don't congratulate me yet. I said that the Father and the Son are separate entities but that they are both rightfully addressed as "God." "God" can be thought of as a collective noun, like team, jury, family, etc. It's made up of various individuals, but they a strongly unified in some way. In the case of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (or Holy Spirit, if you prefer), they are perfectly and absolutely "one God" in terms of their love for us and their desire that we become "one" with them in the same way as a man and his wife are "one flesh." Everybody knows that two people cannot become literally one person, but they can have a perfect unity of will, purpose, mind and heart. And in the case of "God," both can be equally divine, with one of them (the Son) being subordinate to the Father in terms of their personal relationship, which would explain why the Father has not yet given the Son a knowledge of when His Second Coming will be.
I believe his faith was in his God to raise him from the dead, as a dead person cannot raise himself. And, as you have indicated, he prayed to the Father, so in your view did he actually die as a man, trusting that God would raise him from the dead? Perhaps, our difference is that I do not believe in the virgin birth of Catholicism, any more than I do the Trinity or that of three gods in one, for there is only One God and the Father of all humanity, whether alive or dead.
And, I do not believe in demons, the devil or Satan, as well as that of eternal damnation.
I have said this before, and will say it again as a side note: Adversity is a principle that results in active resistance, opposition, or contentiousness within the human nature. And the Hebrew term for Satan merely describes an adversarial role (an adversary). Whereas, an accuser (slanderer, devil) is known for his unrighteous disposition. However, the principalities and powers of unholy (human) messengers, had inculcated the doctrines of demons, devils and Satan in the early views of men; falsely fostering and prospering them. Truth becomes known, when deception falls away (that of self-induced blindness). Christ denounced these doctrines and traditions of men within the Spirit of truth as the ego driven desires are within men, resist them.
Those who live according to the human nature have their mind set on what their nature desires (that of a King to rule over them) but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their mind set on what the Spirit wants: Along came the tempter; the lust of the eyes (understanding of the mind), lust of the flesh (a heart of emotion) and the pride of life (the desires of the will). Thus, while the first Adam conceded to all that is in the world (that which extends deep down from the surface - yet, is visible through distinctive traits or characteristics common to all humanity); the second Adam stood his ground against the natural disposition of the soul and the temperament within that of other men.
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Originally Posted by PoorOldSpike
Start a new thread and we can have fun discussing it.
For example we could say that satan used you like a ventriloquists dummy to say that through your mouth..
It was a side note, so calm that ignorance to a minimum and take your sock puppets with you.
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