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God's Word and God's Wisdom were both personified in the OT with no Trinitarian connotation or understanding on the part of the Jews. They were personified aspects of the one God. To say that God's Word became flesh and dwelt among us hardly compels the conclusion that Jesus was God.
Does "existed in the form of God" compel a Trinitarian conclusion or the conclusion that Jesus actually was God? He existed in the form of God but did not regard equality with God as a thing to be grasped - you don't find this a bit troubling?
It seems to me there is confusion between Jesus being "divine" and being God. I have no issue with the notion that he is divine, that he is unique and that has a unique relationship with God. The son of a king is "royal" but he isn't the king. I believe the best reading of all the verses as a whole is that this is what Jesus understood about himself - he was divine and our Lord, but he wasn't God.
Some verses from Ephesians 1: "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ ... Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory ..."
You want explicit? I'd call those pretty explicit.
yup, if Jesus always made a distinction between himself and God and the writers did the same I am on good ground to continue in the same fashion
Both John and Paul explicitly state that Jesus was God and became man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Again, both John 1:1 compared with John 1:14, and Philippians 2:5-8 plainly state that Jesus is both God and man. Something you are trying desperately to deny.
And you understand nothing about the Trinitarian teaching. Of course Jesus is not the Father. But he is just as much God as the Father is. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another but they are united as one by means of their essence or attributes. They all mutually indwell or interpenatrate each other to the extent that though they are three distinct persons, they exist as one Being.
just like us mike, it is NOT a trinity it is a many membered body with the head being the Father.
if dead with Christ then risen with Christ, we sit in heavenly places mike.
You don't understand what you are saying. You are taking entirely different concepts and trying to make them the same thing. Living human beings are not elohim. The spirits of humans who have physically died are called elohim because they are now living in the spiritual realm. Human beings who have believed in Christ are positionally in Christ and therefore seated positionally with Christ but they are still physically alive in this earthly realm and not in the spiritual realm.
And you would be arguing something that the Bible doesn't say. By being called the "Son of God", he's God. It's why the Pharisees tried to stone him. Because he was calling himself God.
But then we have Jesus' curiously weak and watered-down response in John 10:
The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy; and because you, being a man, make yourself out to be God.†Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law: ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be nullified), are you saying of him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
Jesus is talking about Psalm 82, where God pronounces judgment on the heavenly members of the Divine Council who have abused their authority. God says "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you." But clearly, none of them is God. So Jesus is saying little more than "Hey, I'm a son of God too - but a sanctified one sent into the world by God." The conventional explanation for this curious response is that Jesus is just buying time for himself by deflecting the Jews' charge of blasphemy.
As counterintuitive as it may seem, scholars agree that it's Jesus' repeated use of the term "Son of Man" that is his clearest assertion of divinity.
Again, both John 1:1 compared with John 1:14, and Philippians 2:5-8 plainly state that Jesus is both God and man. Something you are trying desperately to deny.
And you understand nothing about the Trinitarian teaching. Of course Jesus is not the Father. But he is just as much God as the Father is. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct from one another but they are united as one by means of their essence or attributes. They all mutually indwell or interpenatrate each other to the extent that though they are three distinct persons, they exist as one Being.
I explain those scriptures and asked you questions, you refuse to explain and ignored the questions, I am willing to discuss you don't seem willing. oh well
the Trinitarians don't like those type of questions Richard.
Trinitarians have no problem with those type of questions, and have been answered.
How could Jesus have a God over him? Why did the Father call Jesus God and yet say that He was the Son's God in Hebrews chapter one?
There is an authority structure within the godhead but that has nothing to do with ontology. Jesus is just as much God as the Father is, but the first person of the godhead is the authority in the godhead. I already addressed this earlier on this thread.
You don't understand what you are saying. You are taking entirely different concepts and trying to make them the same thing. Living human beings are not elohim. The spirits of humans who have physically died are called elohim because they are now living in the spiritual realm. Human beings who have believed in Christ are positionally in Christ and therefore seated positionally with Christ but they are still physically alive in this earthly realm and not in the spiritual realm.
who did the word of God come to mike? and Richard showed you ps.82 was speaking of man.
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