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No such thing as the trinity. What you cant grasp is elohim which involves many distinct individuals.
And the Father is ontologically greater then all the others in the elohim.
Is the Father greater then us? According to you the answer would be no according to your above post for we to are a part of the elohim.
No, elohim does not refer to humans except for those who have died. Elohim is a place of residency term which refers to inhabitants of the spiritual realm. Elohim refers to Yahweh, to angels, to demons, to the spirits of humans who have died. It does not refer to humans who are physically alive.
Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser on the elohim.
So What Exactly is an Elohim?
It may surprise you, but there are other beings in the Old Testament
that are called elohim besides Yahweh and the gods of the divine council. Demons and
the spirits of the human dead are also called elohim in the Hebrew text! Angels may
also be called elohim, depending on how one takes a text or two. If we don’t come to
grips with just what an elohim is, it can create a lot of confusion. We can’t very well
have God, the gods, demons, angels, and the spirits of dead people all interchangeable
with respect to their attributes! That just makes no sense—and highlights why
understanding the term elohim as denoting a certain plane of existence is so critical to
getting the Bible’s worldview and its theology right.
You are the one accepting the irrationality of the claims you are making, BF, probably out of some misguided sense of obligation to defend the dogma you have been taught as a sign of your devotion and faith in God.
I do find it curious how many of the truly divisive Christian doctrines that are considered absolutely essential either (1) are found solely in the Gospel of John or the Book of Revelation and/or (2) have very thin biblical support and must be arrived at by "reading between the lines."
The Trinity is perhaps the prime example. The undeniable reality is, it isn't found unequivocally anywhere in the Bible. The reality is, Jesus did say many things suggesting he would have been aghast at being equated with the Father. I even find it curious how persistently Paul refers to "Our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity was bitterly debated, fought over and negotiated for many centuries - far beyond the Council of Nicea. As I said, for one brief period the official position reverted from Trinitarianism to Arianism. As one Bishop famously said, "We all became Arians overnight!"
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity - even if you accept it - is intellectually incomprehensible to the point of being unhelpful. The Father "begat" the Son and the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father (and the Son, if that's your theology), but there was never a moment when all three didn't exist and they all have the fullness of God. Got that?
I was quite astonished to hear a theologian of the stature of William Lane Craig say, in his 12-part Defenders series on the Trinity, that there was no Father-Son relationship before the Incarnation. The Person we call the Father could have incarnated, and then he would've been the Son and the Son would have been the Father, or perhaps the Spirit. Got that?
And yet, acceptance of the Trinity is essential. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe the Trinity - whatever "believing the Trinity" may mean. Those cursed Jehovah's Witnesses merely believe Jesus was the firstborn of God's creation - and we all know where they're going to spend eternity for this error alone.
I find it almost unbelievable that any essential core Christian doctrine would not have been clearly and unequivocally set forth in the NT - and the Trinity simply isn't.
I really do think "some misguided sense of obligation to defend the dogma you have been taught as a sign of your devotion and faith in God" just about says it insofar as the Trinity is concerned. "I have no idea what it's even supposed to mean, but by God I believe it because I'm a Christian and I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't at least say I believed it." Ergo, we have embarrassing pissing contests such as this thread, over and over.
One of the distressing things to me about much of Christianity is that the focus is so intensely on Jesus that the Father seems to have been lost. Some of the, er, devotion to Jesus is quite weird and almost sexual.
While I "accept" the Trinity as part of Christian orthodoxy, meaning that I at least don't actively reject it or disbelieve it, there is no way that I regard it as a Christian essential or think it adds much to the religion.
No, elohim does not refer to humans except for those who have died. Elohim is a place of residency term which refers to inhabitants of the spiritual realm. Elohim refers to Yahweh, to angels, to demons, to the spirits of humans who have died. It does not refer to humans who are physically alive.
Old Testament scholar Michael Heiser on the elohim.
So What Exactly is an Elohim?
It may surprise you, but there are other beings in the Old Testament
that are called elohim besides Yahweh and the gods of the divine council. Demons and
the spirits of the human dead are also called elohim in the Hebrew text! Angels may
also be called elohim, depending on how one takes a text or two. If we don’t come to
grips with just what an elohim is, it can create a lot of confusion. We can’t very well
have God, the gods, demons, angels, and the spirits of dead people all interchangeable
with respect to their attributes! That just makes no sense—and highlights why
understanding the term elohim as denoting a certain plane of existence is so critical to
getting the Bible’s worldview and its theology right.
I do find it curious how many of the truly divisive Christian doctrines that are considered absolutely essential either (1) are found solely in the Gospel of John or the Book of Revelation and/or (2) have very thin biblical support and must be arrived at by "reading between the lines."
The Trinity is perhaps the prime example. The undeniable reality is, it isn't found unequivocally anywhere in the Bible. The reality is, Jesus did say many things suggesting he would have been aghast at being equated with the Father. I even find it curious how persistently Paul refers to "Our Father God and our Lord Jesus Christ."
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity was bitterly debated, fought over and negotiated for many centuries - far beyond the Council of Nicea. As I said, for one brief period the official position reverted from Trinitarianism to Arianism. As one Bishop famously said, "We all became Arians overnight!"
The reality is, the doctrine of the Trinity - even if you accept it - is intellectually incomprehensible to the point of being unhelpful. The Father "begat" the Son and the Spirit "proceeds" from the Father (and the Son, if that's your theology), but there was never a moment when all three didn't exist and they all have the fullness of God. Got that?
I was quite astonished to hear a theologian of the stature of William Lane Craig say, in his 12-part Defenders series on the Trinity, that there was no Father-Son relationship before the Incarnation. The Person we call the Father could have incarnated, and then he would've been the Son and the Son would have been the Father, or perhaps the Spirit. Got that?
And yet, acceptance of the Trinity is essential. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe the Trinity - whatever "believing the Trinity" may mean. Those cursed Jehovah's Witnesses merely believe Jesus was the firstborn of God's creation - and we all know where they're going to spend eternity for this error alone.
I find it almost unbelievable that any essential core Christian doctrine would not have been clearly and unequivocally set forth in the NT - and the Trinity simply isn't.
I really do think "some misguided sense of obligation to defend the dogma you have been taught as a sign of your devotion and faith in God" just about says it insofar as the Trinity is concerned. "I have no idea what it's even supposed to mean, but by God I believe it because I'm a Christian and I wouldn't be a Christian if I didn't at least say I believed it." Ergo, we have embarrassing pissing contests such as this thread, over and over.
One of the distressing things to me about much of Christianity is that the focus is so intensely on Jesus that the Father seems to have been lost. Some of the, er, devotion to Jesus is quite weird and almost sexual.
While I "accept" the Trinity as part of Christian orthodoxy, meaning that I at least don't actively reject it or disbelieve it, there is no way that I regard it as a Christian essential or think it adds much to the religion.
Nice post. What is ironic is Jesus came to reveal the Father to us yet people have made an idol out of Jesus calling him both man and God. There is an OT set of scriptures that told us this would happen.
When the people looked unto the serpent on the tree they were healed. The serpent is in reference to Jesus on the cross.
So what happened after this took place?
Those same people who were healed made an idol out of the serpent on the tree.
And people today have done the same thing with Jesus declaring him to be the same as the Father.
Originally Posted by BaptistFundie
Jesus is God. Scripture says he is. But Scripture also says there is only one God. The only way to reconcile those statements is that God is Trinitarian.
Jesus is the Son of God. Scripture says he is. In the Bible Jesus says he has a God and not that he is God. Jesus also said God is greater than him.
"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me."-John 6:38
He resided in heaven but who sent him? And, if he is God does Scripture say he came to do his own will?
We can reconcile Scriptures that seemingly contradict John 1:1 vs John 20:17,18 and John 14:28 by acknowledging that Jesus is divine, we pay obeisance to him. However, there is only one Almighty God.
Nice post. What is ironic is Jesus came to reveal the Father to us yet people have made an idol out of Jesus calling him both man and God. There is an OT set of scriptures that told us this would happen.
When the people looked unto the serpent on the tree they were healed. The serpent is in reference to Jesus on the cross.
So what happened after this took place?
Those same people who were healed made an idol out of the serpent on the tree.
And people today have done the same thing with Jesus declaring him to be the same as the Father.
Both John and Paul explicitly state that Jesus was God and became man.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . 14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us.
Philippians 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
Does Jesus do his own works or the works of his Father that sent him?
But*if*I do,*though*ye believe*not*me,*believe*the works:*that*ye may know,*and*believe,*that*the Father*is*in*me,*and I*in*him.
now is Jesus saying he is the Father or is he saying the Father is IN him and he is IN the Father.
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