Do believers go to heaven when they die? (myth, Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ)

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

That is very simple: To reunite the soul with the body. The soul was never meant to exist outside the body. That is why Jesus warns:

Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Fortunately, the UR's here have nothing to be afraid of ...... hasn't anybody informed Jesus yet?

[ShanaBrown]

I agree with you LIfesigns. I too was taught and WANTED with all my heart to believe we would instantly be with Jesus when we die. I finally read some articles that present the idea that we are DEAD until the resurrection and THE MANY verses, such as you quoted, that say the opposite. I argued in my inner person that the OT verses were superceded when Christ was risen and that NOW our spirit goes. But I honestly looked aty Paul's passages and it does not seem like he is saying we are alive, otherwise why would he have to comfort his readers with 'they are sleeping' and with the hope of hte resurrection. It would be much more encouraging to say that when WE die we will be with Jesus and our loved ones and who cares about our physical bodies if we can think, reason, move around and enjoy God and each other without one?

The verse where Paul says he would rather be absent from the body is most times misquoted. And a good article on that passage is found here:

www.savior-of-all.com/immortal.html

Here is another good criticism of all the passages used to support consciousness upon death before resurrection:

www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=the-Dead

I can't find the one I feel has the best explanation for the Pauline passage. IF I find it later I'll post it.

I just can't get past the question of why Paul didn't make it quite plain that we were enjoyin life with Jesus but instead, as Jesus did, keeps referring to death as sleep and saying the hope of Christians was being resurrected and getting our new immortal bodies.

Right, ScarletWren. Thanks for the links. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Death came to all men, Fundy, both believers and nonbelievers. All are to be resurrected (1 Cor. 15). There will be no reward as long as someone is dead, but death is not the end. It is to be abolished. If death means annihilation, not even believers would have hope and Jesus who tasted death for every man, was not annihilated when He died. When the soul "sleeps" it is dead. God bless.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Right, lifesigns. The dead do not know that they are dead God bless.

(Ecclesiates 9:5)
5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

When a Jehovah Witness like my good friend who I have debates with present Ecclesiastes 9:5 it is used to support their belief of soul annihilation and I have to admit that this passage supports annihilation way tighter than soul sleep. If the dead have no reward than there is NO RESSURECTION in which the righteous will be rewarded This verse contradicts soul sleep.

This is a difficult verse which Jehovah Witnesses use callously to support their doctrine, not even the Jews know what to do with this verse let alone the book of Ecclesiates.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Death came to all men, Fundy, both believers and nonbelievers. All are to be resurrected, Fundy, (1 Cor. 15). There will be no reward as long as someone is dead, but death is not the end. If death means annihilation, not even believers would have hope and Jesus was not annihilated when He died. God bless.

You used the verse Shana not me. I know there is is no annhilation but that verse you used was weak in support of soul sleep, now you are trying to play out of it with "There will be no reward as long as someone is dead" this makes no sense because if they are alive again to receive the reward then just like the verse says, "the living know they will die" so are we in some kind of circle, some form of reincarnation? Is there another state other than death or life?

You are playing fast and loose with scripture many theologians would not tackle.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Fundy, I used the verse to show that the dead do not know anything. They are not living in heaven, aware, floating around , talking, eating, singing, ect. ect. . They perish when they die. There is no reward as long as someone is dead. Death is not a permanent condition and it is to be abolished. I said nothing about reincarnation. As in Adam all die, in Christ all will be made alive. And we will be a new creation. God bless.

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

You used the verse Shana not me. I know there is is no annhilation but that verse you used was weak, now you are trying to play out of it with "There will be no reward as long as someone is dead" this makes no sense because if they are alive again to receive the reward then just like the verse says, the living know they will die? so are we some kind of circle, some form of reincarnation?

You are playing fast and loose with scripture many theologians would not tackle.

Amen....

[ShanaBrown]

We know that the verse in Ecc. is not speaking of annihilation because Jesus was not annihilated when He died, tasting death for every man, and He received and will receive the greatest reward. God bless.

Acts 2

22`Men, Israelites! hear these words, Jesus the Nazarene, a man approved of God among you by mighty works, and wonders, and signs, that God did through him in the midst of you, according as also ye yourselves have known;

23this one, by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, being given out, having taken by lawless hands, having crucified -- ye did slay;
24whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it,
25for David saith in regard to him: I foresaw the Lord always before me -- because He is on my right hand -- that I may not be moved;
26because of this was my heart cheered, and my tongue was glad, and yet -- my flesh also shall rest on hope,
27because Thou wilt not leave my soul to hades, nor wilt Thou give Thy Kind One to see corruption;
28Thou didst make known to me ways of life, Thou shalt fill me with joy with Thy countenance.
29`Men, brethren! it is permitted to speak with freedom unto you concerning the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is among us unto this day;
30a prophet, therefore, being, and knowing that with an oath God did swear to him, out of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, to raise up the Christ, to sit upon his throne,
31having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
32`This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses;
33at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear;
34for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
35till I make thy foes thy footstool; 36assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.' (YLT)

[svenM]

When a Jehovah Witness like my good friend who I have debates with present Ecclesiastes 9:5 it is used to support their belief of soul annihilation and I have to admit that this passage supports annihilation way tighter than soul sleep. If the dead have no reward than there is NO RESSURECTION in which the righteous will be rewarded This verse contradicts soul sleep.

the dead have no reward as long as they are dead, I believe punishment and reward will be after the ressurection and partly in this life already.
I think an intermediate state between death and ressurection is unscriptural, only the parable of the rich man and Lazarus can be used to build such a doctrine.

[ShanaBrown]

Fortunately, the UR's here have nothing to be afraid of ...... hasn't anybody informed Jesus yet?

Perfect love casts out all fear....The one who fears has not been perfected is not perfected in love. (1 John 4) God bless.