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Lady, you are in denial of the truth. No intellectually honest person would deny that Jesus Christ is the Word of God as is seen in a comparison of these verses.
Nevertheless, these are posted not for the likes of you, but rather for those who desire truth.
Well.. if they are reading this thread.. and see comments like this, I would hope they would be smart enough to see that no truth can come from someone so rude.
I'm not sure I understand exactly how you've described it, but I think I see the concept. Here is how I interpret the concept of the Trinity, for comparison sake:
Instead of an umbrella, as you indicate, I see it as a circle (if you will). This circle (that has no space or time boundaries) encompasses the name we refer to as Jehovah (or YHWH). Filling that circle are three distinct persons, co-equal and co-eternal sharing the same attributes. Their titles are Father, Son and Spirit. They are One God, being monotheistic. All three persons represent and share the name Jehovah (or YHWH). Each of the distinct persons has other names, titles and offices associated with their work and manifestations, as listed throughout the OT and NT scriptures.
I'm sure there are others who will explain it much better, but that's how I see it when I read the scriptures.
Consequently, when reading the scriptures, I see it with that light. But I believe this light has it's foundation in scripture. Give me some feedback on this when you have time.
Alabama 31
Mississippi St 3
Well it sounds good but how can it be a circle if the father is not the son and the son is not the spirit and the spirit is not the father, etc.? Wouldn't it be a disjointed circle and not really a circle at all?
Ah, but many are reading and will see that the natural man can not discern Truth! It is the Spirit that gives Life...to the word of God! Not man....all whom walk and hold to the pride of the self life (the natural man), a self-righteousness, it will kill, steal,and destroy their heart, soul, and mind!
The self will only bring forth the fruit of biting and devouring one another, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies. For it will be obvious that the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another.
It also will be obvious whom God the Holy Spirit has reveal His Truth to those who hold in their heart by faith that Jesus is... God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit!
They will bring forth the fruit of the Spirit of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.
The natural man can not see nor hear this because of their lust of the flesh, they reason through their own intellect (the natural man) when reading the word of God for selfish ambition and not through the Spirit whom brings liberty through His grace.
The Truth will only be reveal to those whom, "Trust in the Lord with all their heart, and lean not on their own understanding; in all their ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct their paths."
God opens their hearts to walk by faith, not by sight.....pouring His grace upon that precious soul a heart of belief to the understanding......of this beautiful mystery that He has given His Truth of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ....
Blessings to all who will believe and trust the Lord Jesus our God no matter what!.....
Last edited by Cyber Munchkin; 11-15-2009 at 06:34 AM..
Mike, here is Titus 2:13 in a properly translated Bible:
Tit 2:13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
The Bible says "There is only one God, the Father," not two, not three, not three in one.
Jesus may carry the title "God" in that He is the Great Subjector of all mankind.
Moses carried the title "God" in that He subjected Pharaoh to God's mandate.
The certain judges in Israel carried the title "God" in that they subjected Israel to the laws of God.
Mike, here is Titus 2:13 in a properly translated Bible:
Tit 2:13 anticipating that happy expectation, even the advent of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ,
The Bible says "There is only one God, the Father," not two, not three, not three in one.
Jesus may carry the title "God" in that He is the Great Subjector of all mankind.
Moses carried the title "God" in that He subjected Pharaoh to God's mandate.
The certain judges in Israel carried the title "God" in that they subjected Israel to the laws of God.
And you are another who no matter what, rejects and denies the truth, no matter how clearly it is presented. You have used an incorrectly translated version similar to the KJV in an attempt to discredit the correct rendering of the verse. I even gave the verse as it is in the Greek in transliteration. I supplied the information concerning the fact that there is only one Article in the Greek between the word God and Jesus.
I used the 'Youngs Literal Translation', the 'NASV', and the 'Greek/English Interlinear Bible' in presenting the verse. I supplied the commentary from those who know what they are talking about regarding language usage. And still you would attempt to discredit all that with an incorrect translation and saying that it is correct.
To anyone reading this, simply refer to post #189, and also to post#180.
The Bible declares Jesus Christ to be eternal and infinite God. It does not apply the word 'god' to Him as it is applied to the judges and magistrates of ancient Israel.
There are always going to be people who attack the vericity of the Word of God, such as the ones on this thread who prefer their cultish beliefs instead of truth. To deny the Deity of Jesus Christ is absurd, and blasphemous.
Verses 7 and 9 are talking about the ministry of the messiah.. the message. It is the ministry and the message that is forever.. Jesus obviously died on the cross so he is not literally the same. The message, however, is from God and so it was the same message from the beginning and forever.
Deflection from what is being said..God is in human form, therefore he can die...that was the whole purpose katonjj.
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The forgiveness of sins is addressed in Matt. 9:6.. and what is neat is that which is in Matt 9:8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
So it is God who gave Christ the authority.. it was not Christ's authority to begin with. Also, Christ states in Matt. 9:6 that he has the authority on earth to forgive sins..
You answered your own question.
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So Jesus was begotten or brought forth/conceived.. God cannot be "begotten." And God cannot have a father. Therefore by simple reasoning... Jesus cannot be God.
Your reasoning in carnal...God is all...you are trying to put the qualities of God in a box...... again.
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Perhaps your forget that Christ was created by God... I don't think it is necessary to worship the mediator anymore than the mother of the mediator.. I worship God alone. Matt 4:10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'"
Worship Him as the angels do....Christ is God...your use of scripture is irrelevant to the case...again.....One scripture alone does NOT prove your case, when thousands of others prove mine...therefore your use of scripture is ill applied and has deeper meaning when used in this sense.
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Isn't a sceptre a tool? A rod or staff? How can God be the tool when there must've been a tool maker? "thy throne, O God" refers to the rulership of Christ not to Jesus being address as God... This one can be further addressed but I will wait for your rebuttal before continuing.
Again...your reasoning is ill applied...carnal and flesh...the scriptrue states what it states, yet you defy the truth behind it. Submit to Christ.
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If someone is anointed to a position then they are not the supreme authority but the anointer is... God is the one giving his son the authority to do all things. Think Bruce Almighty.... Bruce was never God although he was given the authority on earth to do God's job. Now I am not saying that Jim Carrey's antics are like that of Christ... by any means.. just using it as an example of how a man can be given God's authority without actuall being God.
??? I really don't care for this kind of stuff, it has nothing to do with the subject and is NEW AGE PROPOGANDA...SOLA SCRIPTURA PLEASE
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Actually the whole Chapter is about God and the quote is from Psalms 102 which addresses God not Jesus.
You are wrong again...read your Bible.
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The authority is handed back over to God because it is temporary... it is really not that hard to understand. None of these verse show that Jesus is God but that he was given all things by God.. Yet even Jesus tells us that plainly.
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.
Underlined is an answer to your own question...again...they are the same.
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Now you are just grasping at straws..
You are grasping at straws. Eisegetical nonsense.
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The problem with the verses you provide is that none of them say that Jesus is God. You read them with the preconceived notion that Jesus is God and so to you every verse points to the deity of Christ. I don't have that problem so I can look at each verse objectively. I would love to agree with you that Jesus is God but it is just not so.
The real issue is you don't actually read posts with an open mind. The real issue is the scriptures defy everything you say, yet you still banter?
Submit to Christ
Last edited by sciotamicks; 11-15-2009 at 10:45 AM..
Deflection from what is being said..God is in human form, therefore he can die...that was the whole purpose katonjj.
Nice.. so now in order to hold on to your trinitarian view you admit that God can die.. ok. Suppose God did die on the cross. What then is the purpose of that sacrifice since we know that he really didn't die like we die but is still God?
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Your reasoning in carnal...God is all...you are trying to put the qualities of God in a box...... again.
And this God in a box for you is:
All three are one but cannot be each other... now how much sense does that make to the layman? Why can't Jesus be the Father if he is God and the Father is God? You have preconceived ideas about what God is and you are unwilling to look at it from any other perspective. It is apparent that you are not trying to explain it to me using sound logic and reason. The word logos means reason and it is Aristotle who used the word logos to represent the logical formation of an argument. However, the trinity is not logical.
If the Father, the son, and the holy spirit are all God... and they are all equal to one another yet the Father cannot be the son, the son cannot be the spirit, the spirit cannot be the father.. haven't we just contradicted that they are all equal and one and the same God?
So here we have that there is:
Exactly One God - confirming Monotheism and denying Polytheism.
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God - each person is equally divine and not subordinate to one another.
The Father is not the Son, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son - there is three persons which contradicts there being One God and yet confirms that the three are separate persons not just manifestation of God.
According to the Athanasian Creed: "We worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person for the Father, another for the Son, and yet another for the Holy Spirit. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one...."
So here we are told to divide the substance of God into three distinct persons.. yet we cannot divide the substance of God.
Now if you say that there are three persons who are all divine/God then you say they are all One God collectively but they are not to be confused with the role of the other... how in the world can that logically be one God?
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Worship Him as the angels do....Christ is God...your use of scripture is irrelevant to the case...again.....One scripture alone does NOT prove your case, when thousands of others prove mine...therefore your use of scripture is ill applied and has deper meaning when used in this sense.
Hebrews 1:3-4 states that Jesus BECAME superior to the angels upon his ascension to heaven.. after his death. Therefore if we too will ascend to the father after death in the same incorruptible state.. should I worship my Great grandmother who died a devout christian?
Without getting to off topic.. the first part of Revelation (and throughout the NT) we can see that the apostles were servants of Christ. My bible references Deut. 32:43 for the verse you quote above.. "worship him as the angels do" yet the passage in Deut. reads: "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people."
So what we have is nothing close to the verse you quote from Hebrews 1:6 about worshiping the angels. However, as we know.. the word for angels in Hebrews 1: 6 is aggelos which by implication means pastor and literally messenger.
Hebrews 1:7 confirms this by quoting Psalm 104:4 He makes the winds His messengers, Flaming fire His ministers.
So you can see that it is not the winged angels that are spoken of here but the messengers and ministers who are human.
Now that is the verse in proper context and meaning.
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Again...your reasoning is ill applied...carnal and flesh...the scriptrue states what it states, yet you defy the truth behind it. Submit to Christ.
LOL I just showed that you don't take the time to uncover the truth behind your statements. It is you who doesn't want to uncover the truth but to smother it with your lack of open-mindedness.
I fully wish I could fit in with the many trinitarians but with reasonable study it is proven a false doctrine.
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??? I really don
't care for this kind of syuff, it has nothing to do with the subject and is NEW AGE PROPOGANDA...SOLA SCRIPTURA PLEASE
So you have never watched the fictional movies about humans being given the powers of God with the outcome being that they screw it up and cannot be trusted with the authority? I don't think you understand how it is that the trinity is not sola scriptura..
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You are wrong again...read your Bible.
Underline answer your own question...again...they are the same.
You are grasping at straws. Eisegetical nonsense.
When you say these things it is clear that you have no response.
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The real issue is you don't actually read posts with an open mind. The real issue is the scripture defy everything you say, yet you still banter?
Submit to Christ
The real issue is that you don't have a response to anything I say. I take the word of God and decipher it according to the scripture and sound reasoning. You, however, take the word of God and read it with trinitarian colored glasses and when that doesn't work you attack character, spiritual maturity, and scriptural understanding. What is funny is that I am not bound by doctrine, therefore by definition I bring an open mind to all the scripture I read... you however will be labeled heretical if you have an open mind about the trinity and deity of Christ.. therefore by definition you must be close-minded.
Well it sounds good but how can it be a circle if the father is not the son and the son is not the spirit and the spirit is not the father, etc.? Wouldn't it be a disjointed circle and not really a circle at all?
You're probably right, my choice of the word "circle" is not really a good analogy for the Trinity. After posting my thoughts, I considered the word sphere, but that doesn't really capture the idea either.
I'm not sure how else to think it through, other than 3 distinct persons united as One God. Laying aside any other objections to the Trinity, if you had to define it, even though you may not necessarily hold to the doctrine, how would you envision it?
PS: I liked your response to some of the comments made. You did so in the Spirit of Christ, well done .
To deny the Deity of Jesus Christ is absurd, and blasphemous.
Now if you can find a verse in the bible that states the above.. then I will concede this argument and join the trinity crowd in a heart beat!
I know that to deny the HUMANITY of Jesus Christ is considered deceptive according to 2 John 1:7 but I have yet to see any verse that states that you are condemned if you deny the deity of Christ....
In fact if you read 2 John 1 it is apparent that verse 7 is in response to a claim that Jesus was spirit and not fully human. This is where the trinitarians decided that Jesus must be 100% God and 100% Human.. Yet as you can see.. that would be 200%... Obviously it is more damaging to believe that Jesus is not human than that he is not God because there is not any passage that state what you say above.
And hence one of the major problems I have with Christ being God.
You're probably right, my choice of the word "circle" is not really a good analogy for the Trinity. After posting my thoughts, I considered the word sphere, but that doesn't really capture the idea either.
I'm not sure how else to think it through, other than 3 distinct persons united as One God. Laying aside any other objections to the Trinity, if you had to define it, even though you may not necessarily hold to the doctrine, how would you envision it?
PS: I liked your response to some of the comments made. You did so in the Spirit of Christ, well done .
I have heard many analogies as to the trinity. I gave my view in post #173 of this thread but it got buried... LOL this thread is getting outta hand
and the catholics use this image:
http://www.acts321.org/__assets/catholic_trinity.jpg (broken link)
Here is part of the post #173:
"The way I see it.. there is nothing in the bible that separates the Holy Spirit from God. It seems that the Holy Spirit is not separate from God but more like tentacles that are able to grab us here on earth to steer us clear of the obstacles of humanity. I picture God Almighty as the huge octupus head and his tentacles (the holy spirit) extend to us on earth. Some people grab onto the tentacles and are guided by them. Others simply let the tentacles follow them instead (resulting in a less than fulfilling life). Jesus not only let the tentacles lead him but relied solely on the tentacle to the point where the tentacle was embedded in his very being.
Now that is the weirdest analogy I have ever used and in writing it I had to chuckle... but to me it makes sense that the holy spirit is an extension of God and not a separate person. So when I see that Christ also used the holy spirit and advised us to use the spirit of God in the same way.. then I must conclude that although Jesus was more complete in his divinity that we also can make use of that same divinity.."
The picture it brings to the mind is quite amusing but it closely represents how I view the relationships of the Father, the son, and the spirit.
ADDED: You may find this article to be enlightening... I found it to be at least coherent... http://www.nd.edu/~mrea/Online%20Papers/Understanding%20the%20Trinity.pdf (http://www.nd.edu/%7Emrea/Online%20Papers/Understanding%20the%20Trinity.pdf - broken link)
Last edited by katjonjj; 11-15-2009 at 12:33 PM..
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Obviously it is more damaging to believe that Jesus is not human than that he is not God because there is not any passage that state what you say above. 
