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and the catholics use this image:
http://www.acts321.org/__assets/catholic_trinity.jpg (broken link)
Here is part of the post #173:
"The way I see it.. there is nothing in the bible that separates the Holy Spirit from God. It seems that the Holy Spirit is not separate from God but more like tentacles that are able to grab us here on earth to steer us clear of the obstacles of humanity. I picture God Almighty as the huge octupus head and his tentacles (the holy spirit) extend to us on earth. Some people grab onto the tentacles and are guided by them. Others simply let the tentacles follow them instead (resulting in a less than fulfilling life). Jesus not only let the tentacles lead him but relied solely on the tentacle to the point where the tentacle was embedded in his very being.
Now that is the weirdest analogy I have ever used and in writing it I had to chuckle... but to me it makes sense that the holy spirit is an extension of God and not a separate person. So when I see that Christ also used the holy spirit and advised us to use the spirit of God in the same way.. then I must conclude that although Jesus was more complete in his divinity that we also can make use of that same divinity.."
The picture it brings to the mind is quite amusing but it closely represents how I view the relationships of the Father, the son, and the spirit.
Sorry, I didn't go back and review those posts. I'm starting to use two web browser sessions now to figure out where I'm at, and what I'm supposed to answer...LOL.
If I remember right, I'm always supposed to disagree with you (at least thats what I recall), but I'm not sure why...LOL. Your right it's out of control
OK...with that aside. The first picture you posted, is how I initially conceived of the trinity. It's weird, they call the circle God. But God's name is Jehovah. Actually, I don't necessarily agree with how they depict the image either. I see all creation and all humanity, in Jehovah, within the circle (as it were) too:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist, as also some of the poets among you have said, For we are also His offspring.
I don't necessarily see God or His Spirit extending down to us on earth, but we (including all creation) are already embraced and within Him as the scripture states. For we live, move and have our being (exist) in Him.
I'm going to stop here to get some of your feedback, before going further. Tell me if you think I'm nuts...LOL
Sorry, I didn't go back and review those posts. I'm starting to use two web browser sessions now to figure out where I'm at, and what I'm supposed to answer...LOL.
If I remember right, I'm always supposed to disagree with you (at least thats what I recall), but I'm not sure why...LOL. Your right it's out of control
OK...with that aside. The first picture you posted, is how I initially conceived of the trinity. It's weird, they call the circle God. But God's name is Jehovah. Actually, I don't necessarily agree with how they depict the image either. I see all creation and all humanity, in Jehovah, within the circle (as it were) too:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist, as also some of the poets among you have said, For we are also His offspring.
I don't necessarily see God or His Spirit extending down to us on earth, but we (including all creation) are already embraced and within Him as the scripture states. For we live, move and have our being (exist) in Him.
I'm going to stop here to get some of your feedback, before going further. Tell me if you think I'm nuts...LOL
I added a link to the previous post.. apparently while you were responding... so I will respond again to this post while you check out the link.. it is a good one and the conclusion is contrary to my belief but you may find it helpful.
And you are another who no matter what, rejects and denies the truth, no matter how clearly it is presented. You have used an incorrectly translated version similar to the KJV in an attempt to discredit the correct rendering of the verse. I even gave the verse as it is in the Greek in transliteration. I supplied the information concerning the fact that there is only one Article in the Greek between the word God and Jesus.
There is no definite article between God and Jesus in Titus 2:13. The Greek word between "God" and "Jesus" is the Greek conjunction word "KAI" meaning "and."
The definite article is the word "the". There is no "God the Jesus" in that verse.
Now if you can find a verse in the bible that states the above.. then I will concede this argument and join the trinity crowd in a heart beat!
I know that to deny the HUMANITY of Jesus Christ is considered deceptive according to 2 John 1:7 but I have yet to see any verse that states that you are condemned if you deny the deity of Christ....
In fact if you read 2 John 1 it is apparent that verse 7 is in response to a claim that Jesus was spirit and not fully human. This is where the trinitarians decided that Jesus must be 100% God and 100% Human.. Yet as you can see.. that would be 200%... Obviously it is more damaging to believe that Jesus is not human than that he is not God because there is not any passage that state what you say above.
And hence one of the major problems I have with Christ being God.
There is no argument. Simply a refusal on your part to accept the plain truth, as stated over and over again in the Bible. I have presented Titus 2:13 in Post #189. And yet you reject it.
You don't believe in Heaven, you don't believe in the lake of fire, you don't believe in Satan, you don't believe in demons, You don't believe in angels in general, you don't believe in the rapture, you don't believe in the Tribulation, so it is no great surprise that you reject the Deity of Christ. You reject just about everything the Bible has to say.
There is no definite article between God and Jesus in Titus 2:13. The Greek word between "God" and "Jesus" is the Greek conjunction word "KAI" meaning "and."
The definite article is the word "the". There is no "God the Jesus" in that verse.
The phrase is 'our great God And Savior, Jesus Christ.''
Readers may refer back to post #189 for the details.
The phrase is 'our great God And Savior, Jesus Christ.''
Readers may refer back to post #189 for the details.
You can't even get your own words right. You said:
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I even gave the verse as it is in the Greek in transliteration. I supplied the information concerning the fact that there is only one Article in the Greek between the word God and Jesus.
There isn't a definate nor indefinate article bwtween "our God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.
Sorry, I didn't go back and review those posts. I'm starting to use two web browser sessions now to figure out where I'm at, and what I'm supposed to answer...LOL.
No problem.. it's not that big of a deal. I have the same issues!
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If I remember right, I'm always supposed to disagree with you (at least thats what I recall), but I'm not sure why...LOL. Your right it's out of control
Yes you are supposed to disagree with me but I think we are both honestly searching for the truth and God will honor that...
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OK...with that aside. The first picture you posted, is how I initially conceived of the trinity. It's weird, they call the circle God. But God's name is Jehovah. Actually, I don't necessarily agree with how they depict the image either. I see all creation and all humanity, in Jehovah, within the circle (as it were) too:
Yes if I were to amend that picture I would definitely put all creation in there too... however in the scope of the trinity then it would imply that all creation is equal to the other three and are divine.. I don't think most trinitarians would like that.
On the other hand, I think it is clear in scripture that by tearing down the veil of the Holy of Holies the way to God is made known for all creation so in that sense all creation should be included in the "circle" of God.
Quote:
Act 17:28 For in Him we live and move and exist, as also some of the poets among you have said, For we are also His offspring.
Yes..
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the life of every living thing, And the breath of all mankind?
Job 27:3 For as long as life is in me, And the breath of God is in my nostrils,
Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
So I think that it is apparent the the spirit of God is the cause of all life and without that spirit there is physical death. That is why I think that Jesus came to tell us how to use the spirit of God that we all possess and also showed us how we can increase the spirit to crush the tendencies of the flesh.
Gal. 5:17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.
Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
So that the spiritual battle is between flesh (our fleshly desires) and the spirit (the breath of life given by God to all mankind). In order for the spirit to win the battle we must strengthen it with the sword of truth, the spirit of love, and a direct communication with God in order to let the spirit have full control of the body.
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I don't necessarily see God or His Spirit extending down to us on earth, but we (including all creation) are already embraced and within Him as the scripture states. For we live, move and have our being (exist) in Him.
I'm going to stop here to get some of your feedback, before going further. Tell me if you think I'm nuts...LOL
Like I said.. my analogy using an octupus was nuts!
And here we are not really debating the deity of Christ anymore! LOL
I will tell you that I do have a problem with the sacrifice of a deity. I don't think a deity can be sacrificed or by definition the deity is not truly a deity.
Also, some say that if Jesus is 100% human and 100% God therefore it is his human part that died on the cross. Think of this though... if the human part of Christ died then how is Christ any different from the father.. wouldn't he then be left with the 100% God part?
And furthermore.. if Christ is 100% human and 100% God, what part of him is corruptible? His body, right? So if his body is changed to incorruptible.. then does he retain his humanity as well? Thus being a different substance than God and the spirit who are both spirit.
This is the problem I have with the trinity. It seems that 2 of the three persons are spirit while Christ is human.. and retains that humanity forever.
Yikes... I think I just turned my post into the Tower of "BABBLE"
There is no argument. Simply a refusal on your part to accept the plain truth, as stated over and over again in the Bible. I have presented Titus 2:13 in Post #189. And yet you reject it.
Obviously then you can come up with nothing in answer to my question. That is fine. And obviously there is no verse that states that to deny Jesus as God is blasphemy, so you are making up your own rules.. that is fine too if you want to box yourself in like that.
As for Titus 2:13 - here is an excerpt from a review of the verse (which of course you are unlikely to respond to, but is apparent in the original language) since it is much better said here than I would say it:
The possessive pronoun ‘our’ occurs after the conjuction “kai”, as is seen above in the Greek and is associated with and prior to “iesou christou”, thus the Greek expression is “kai soteros emon iesou christou” [and saviour of us Jesus Christ]. Trinitarians knowingly and for doctrinal reasons put “our” before ‘God’ and not ‘Jesus Christ’, this allows them to force the Apostle to agree with their 4th century Trinitarianism, but unfortunately for Trinitarians, the original position of the Greek ‘possessive pronoun’ “emon” proves them to be perverting and misusing and abusing the original position of the Greek ‘possessive pronoun’ and they deliberately mislead others into thinking that God and Jesus are one and the same, when they are not!Thoughts.com Blogs - Titus 2:13 and the possessive pronoun 'emon' [our]
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You don't believe in Heaven, you don't believe in the lake of fire, you don't believe in Satan, you don't believe in demons, You don't believe in angels in general, you don't believe in the rapture, you don't believe in the Tribulation, so it is no great surprise that you reject the Deity of Christ. You reject just about everything the Bible has to say.
You are correct. I don't believe in an actual place where God dwells that humans call "heaven" as it is clear in scripture that God encompasses heavens and earth. "But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!" 1 Kings 8:27
So then begs the question.. if the heavens (space as we know it) cannot contain God.. then why do we think he can dwell in a human body?
Also I don't believe in the lake of fire as an actual lake filled with burning fire... rather it is apocalyptic language to describe a state of purification...
I don't believe in the devil because then I would have to believe that there is a being that is strong enough to challenge the Almighty God..
I don't believe in demons because in the OT you never hear of them but rather evil spirits are sent from God.. and in the NT the demons are man-made "apparitions" to explain illnesses..
I don't believe in angels as winged helpers of God.. who by definition needs no help, but as human messengers for the cause of God or God's spirit as the case may be.
I don't believe in the rapture because there is no reason to think that some people will not physically die.. all men physically die. That is the inherent nature of the material that the body is made of.. corruptible...
I don't believe in the future tribulation because I hold to preterist views so that the tribulation was real and has passed, but I do believe in the tribulation that was real and passed.. of which Jesus warned those who he talked with in that generation.
So yep.. you are correct. I don't believe in fairy tales, either.. I don't believe in angels sleeping with humans causing the flood... I don't believe in Ouija boards having evil powers... I don't believe in santa.. ghosts... etc.. I believe that God is the only True God and his son brought the message of love to us on earth for our edification and the Glory of God. That is what the bible teaches..
I will tell you that I do have a problem with the sacrifice of a deity. I don't think a deity can be sacrificed or by definition the deity is not truly a deity.
Thanks for posting the article on the Trinity. It was good reading. The idea of the Trinity is difficult to comprehend, and like the article you posted documents, has been ongoing for years, so I doubt it will end here.
With that said, I don't think we're too far apart though, other than how to explain it. And to be honest, I don't feel that a lack of having a pure definition, illustrating all of the Trinity's truths, is grounds (for myself anyway) to dismiss it. I do understand why others would feel otherwise though.
Regarding the sacrifice of deity (God?) for sin: There is a very interesting law in the OT, that I think explains why it was perhaps an obligation, as well as necessary, for God to be that sacrifice. Tell me what you think about these verses, obviously substituting God (for man) as owner of the pit (the tree of knowledge) and Man (for the ox):
Exo 21:33 And when a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit, and does not cover it, and an ox or an ass falls into it,
Exo 21:34 the owner of the pit shall pay; he shall give silver to its owner, and the dead shall be his.
Give me your comments on this when you get time. I'll be in and out this afternoon, so I might not always be prompt with my replies.
Thanks for posting the article on the Trinity. It was good reading. The idea of the Trinity is difficult to comprehend, and like the article you posted documents, has been ongoing for years, so I doubt it will end here.
With that said, I don't think we're too far apart though, other than how to explain it. And to be honest, I don't feel that a lack of having a pure definition, illustrating all of the Trinity's truths, is grounds (for myself anyway) to dismiss it. I do understand why others would feel otherwise though.
Regarding the sacrifice of deity (God?) for sin: There is a very interesting law in the OT, that I think explains why it was perhaps an obligation, as well as necessary, for God to be that sacrifice. Tell me what you think about these verses, obviously substituting God (for man) as owner of the pit (the tree of knowledge) and Man (for the ox):
Exo 21:33 And when a man opens a pit, or when a man digs a pit, and does not cover it, and an ox or an ass falls into it,
Exo 21:34 the owner of the pit shall pay; he shall give silver to its owner, and the dead shall be his.
Give me your comments on this when you get time. I'll be in and out this afternoon, so I might not always be prompt with my replies.
I think I will just DM you so that you don't have to search for my answer and so it doesn't disturb the thread. Ok.. well apparently you don't accept DM's so...
I will post it here and perhaps you can accept my friendship so I can DM you in the future?
Well.. I read through chapter 21..
I see the correlation you see.. So you are saying that if God causes a pit (that of sinful nature I presume) and humans fall into it then the owner of the pit will pay (sacrifice of himself) and the dead (man) will be his...
However.. the verse states that the owner of the animal is different from the owner of the pit... so God paying himself doesn't make sense to me since he owns both the pit and the animal that falls in.
I think that if this verse compares to the verses you quote it is in the sense that Jesus is the covering of the pit.. So God dug the pit and some fell in.. he rescues those who fall in (the OT people) and then covers it with Christ. Now he could, theoretically, cover the pit with himself and in essence that is what he has done..
Now I personally think that if the sacrifices of the OT were the shadow of the sacrifice of Christ.. then comparing them would be appropriate.
First we must ask ourselves if God thought the sacrifice of animals was necessary:
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?" (Isa 1:11)
"your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me" (Jer 6:20)
"Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel;...I spoke not unto your fathers nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: But this thing commanded I them saying, Obey my voice and I will be your God, and you shall be my people: and walk you in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you" (Jer 7:22-23)
"Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to hearken than the fat of rams" (I Sam 15:22)
"To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice...The sacrifice of the wicked is abomination" (Prov 21:3,27)
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart..." (Psa 51:17; Isa 66:2)
He shall be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness (Psa 51:19)
So I believe that God did not require sacrifices of animals but that he realized that in order to alleviate the consciences of men they required something that would create a sense of being whole and so they sacrificed animals.
We know from scripture that the killing of a man or sacrifice of a man is completely against God's plan for man.
1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Just like the sacrifice of the animal was a pledge of a good conscience toward God..
Now what Christ did was to preach that the God of the Israelites did not require sacrifices of animals but wanted them to obey his spirit and use this obedience to be able to walk in the light rather than the darkness.. The problem was that the natural reaction of those in authority within Jerusalem were predisposed to wanting to kill him for this message.
Now Christ's sacrifice was that he was willing to be killed in order to spread the good news. That doesn't require Christ to be God. It is the breakdown of the OT laws of sacrifice that ensured the salvation... and that was and always is available to men without sacrifice.. according to God.. it is men who need proof by way of sacrifice.
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Obviously it is more damaging to believe that Jesus is not human than that he is not God because there is not any passage that state what you say above. 
