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I get what you are saying...except that it's not true in Atlanta's case as we replaced our streetcars with a subway.
Yes much later on ATL got subways. Chicago replaced it over a hundred years ago [almost immediately] and kept subways instead of dismantling like L.A [dismantled its subway for freeways]. What I'm trying to say is can you really say ATL is more caught with streetcar era than it is to roads era? If you had to pick one, which would it be
BTW Futurama conceptual design from the 50's. Brief intro was that the Big 3 went from city to city and paid to dismantle streetcar and subway systems in as many cities as possible for roads and freeways, it would lead GM, Chrysler, and Ford to profit from automobile sales, hence monopolizing their sales. The conceptual design introduced freeways, keep in mind freeways were futuristic dreams at that time; imagining one road that had no stops, you get on and keep going to limitless speeds [higher legal speeds then] and get off when you reach destination.
Not sure where the 6.2 million number came from, but DC and Baltimore's UA is in way shape of form continuously developed at a level for them to be combined into one yet. There respective metros as a whole are though, which is why they are combined into a CSA.
I did combine the UA's of Baltimore and DC and yes they are continuously developed with no break based on the UA definition as is with areas like SF/SJ or NYC/Philly - the only break is a census cut not a developed cut. Where the cut takes place is actually quite developed and the continuously place that Baltimore resides in has a larger population over fewer square miles than does Atlanta. Now i am by no means saying that Atlanta is small, does not have urbanity etc but these comparisons of Baltimore to Jacksonville are just absurd.
Would you consider McDonough GA to not be part of the Atlanta area or developed space, well in that distance you are inside the district from Baltimore more or less and with a boat load more development along the way. Have you ever traveled between Baltimore and DC - there is really no break and no line of demarcation in reality that seperates the two - they flow seemless
On the points about urbanity etc. i agree that to say there is no urbanity in Atlanta is flat out wrong but in the same context to say the city of Baltimore does not exhibit greater urbanity over the city to me is also false. On the city Baltimore is basically twice as dense and the neighborhoods by and large are far more cohesively urban
All that being said between the two if I had to choose one neighborhood to live in it would be Midtown in Atlanta, but overall Atlanta has many gaps in urbanity and not just in buckhead. The area that seperates Buckhead and Midtown is quite suburban - there are many box stores and strip malls; to me this really dimishes the over urban feel. Is that better or worse - that is really a personal perspective but on Urbanity there is a distinct between the two cities
I get what you are saying...except that it's not true in Atlanta's case as we replaced our streetcars with a subway.
The downfall of the american street car companies is directly related to governmental policy and the highly subsidized automobile. Subsidized auto companies bought the streetcar companies to monopolize the market and shut them down. Didn't you watch Who Framed Roger Rabbit?
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany
Yes much later on ATL got subways. Chicago replaced it over a hundred years ago [almost immediately] and kept subways instead of dismantling like L.A [dismantled its subway for freeways].
All true. What you must consider though this is not an entirely black and white subject of "this kind of city has that". There is no question that Chicago is very urban and densely populated city. The reason I say it's closer to Atlanta or Los Angeles in terms of the city proper than it is to New York or even Baltimore is that when Chicago first started to be come a big city, it's centeral core filled up, and it was followed by residential development radiating out from the core along streetcar and elevated lines.
Essentially, the same thing happened in Atlanta and Los Angeles. Just on a much, much, much smaller scale than in Chicago (obviously). Places like Baltimore and Philadelphia on the other hand developed into big cities before there were even streetcars. This meant the development you see there is much more compact as those cities developed in a more even pattern due to necessity. People had to live close the center of town because the only reliable form of transit was walking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany
What I'm trying to say is can you really say ATL is more caught with streetcar era than it is to roads era? If you had to pick one, which would it be
If we are talking about the city of Atlanta than by all means it is much more in line with the streetcar era. The story you always here about Atlanta such as the massive growth of it's suburbs and it's freeways and such, took place separately from the development of the city of Atlanta proper. With the exception of Buckhead (which is much closer to the popular view of Atlanta which is that of a extremely dense core and more suburbanesque areas around it), the city saw the majority of it's first wave of development before the highways were even built in the 1950s. In fact, in 1950, the city of Atlanta had a population density of 8900 (denser than Baltimore is today).
To give you an idea of what in mean, in 1970 the population of Metro Atlanta was at 1.7 million. 500,000 in the city, 1.2 million in the burbs. Today, the population of the city is a little under 600,000 (after losing 150,000 people between 1970 and 1990, but growing by 200,000 since 1990 with no annexation) while the suburbs have about 5,000,000 people. Essentially, all of the suburban development of Metro Atlanta occurred in the suburbs, the city remained essential the same.
So all of the neighborhoods that were developed in the streetcar era remain intact and make up the core neighborhoods of the city. These neighborhoods were built for mass transit usage, and they still are lived that way today.
For instance, 23% of all households in the city of Atlanta do not own a car. That might seem low, but compare that with Baltimore where it is 35%. Source
Or how about public transportation usage. In Atlanta, the subway has a daily ridership of 246,000 . That might seem low, but compare it to Baltimore where the daily ridership of there subway is 54,000 (not a typo) and 29,000 (also not a typo) for their Light rail system. (Source) Now there are a lot of factors that go in to both numbers, and both cities manage about 500,000 daily riders for their entire transit system, but you can see where I make the case about the City of Atlanta still being geared to the way it was developed along the street car.
Atlanta is much different city than Baltimore not because Baltimore is more urban, but because Atlanta and Baltimore were configured in two different ways.
Essentially, Baltimore developed in the old school way where there is central business district, and then relatively evenly built up areas emanating outwards from core.
Atlanta on the other hand has a very densely built up central core (and second desnly built core now developing in the north half of the city) and then urban areas emanating out in strands along transit lines, with urban villages at the center of the neighborhoods to meet immediate needs. These neighborhoods, once the streetcars were razed, remained. To replace the role of the streetcars, subway stations were constructed central locations, with motorized busses to car out the local service streetcars once performed. The success of this has been a mixed bag, as some neighborhoods have a harder time utilizing the current infrastructure, but we are in the process of this with the reintroduction of streetcars and four new lightrail lines connecting to the subway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost of Blasphamany
BTW Futurama conceptual design from the 50's. Brief intro was that the Big 3 went from city to city and paid to dismantle streetcar and subway systems in as many cities as possible for roads and freeways, it would lead GM, Chrysler, and Ford to profit from automobile sales, hence monopolizing their sales. The conceptual design introduced freeways, keep in mind freeways were futuristic dreams at that time; imagining one road that had no stops, you get on and keep going to limitless speeds [higher legal speeds then] and get off when you reach destination.
This is exactly what I was thinking of when I made the Detroit reference. It's almost sad to watch those videos. Just imagine how much different American cities would be if this had never been forced on to the public.
Location: The Greatest city on Earth: City of Atlanta Proper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
I did combine the UA's of Baltimore and DC and yes they are continuously developed with no break based on the UA definition as is with areas like SF/SJ or NYC/Philly
Baltimore and DC and NYC and Philly having a continuously developed UA is news to me and probably ever one else. It may happen one day, but not now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Where the cut takes place is actually quite developed and the continuously place that Baltimore resides in has a larger population over fewer square miles than does Atlanta. Now i am by no means saying that Atlanta is small, does not have urbanity etc but these comparisons of Baltimore to Jacksonville are just absurd.
No, the Baltimore UA is smaller and size and population than Atlanta's UA because of what the Census Bureau considers a continuously urbanized area. This is because, as you point out, the area of development around Baltimore is in a much smaller area than that of the developed area around Atlanta.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Would you consider McDonough GA to not be part of the Atlanta area or developed space, well in that distance you are inside the district from Baltimore more or less and with a boat load more development along the way.
I consider McDonough to be a the very edge of the core development of "true" Metro Atlanta. There is no doubt though that famous Atlanta suburban sprawl (that we always get slammed on) outside the city of Atlanta goes on for that far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidphilly
Have you ever traveled between Baltimore and DC - there is really no break and no line of demarcation in reality that seperates the two - they flow seemless
I have, but that's exactly the reason why Baltimore and DC are combined as one CSA but not as one urban area. The reason being, that continuos line of development is basically constrained the 3 mile or so area between I-95 and the Baltimore-Washington Parkway...barely. On either side of both highways, there almost zero development and the development that does exist between both cities is basically hugging I-95. This can be seen quite clearly from above.
This is much different from the situation with Atlanta where the suburban development is continuous in pretty much all directions for 30 miles outside the city.
No, the Baltimore UA is smaller and size and population than Atlanta's UA because of what the Census Bureau considers a continuously urbanized area. This is because, as you point out, the area of development around Baltimore is in a much smaller area than that of the developed area around Atlanta.
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But it is continuously developed as is NYC/Philly - the census cuts it because of commuter rate which in reality has zero to do with developed area
The cut line in the Philly/NYC UA is at a density of 7K on both sides - to say the developed area does not maintain continuity is absolute rediculousness, honestly - that would be basically the same as drawing a line between downtown Midtown and Buckhead and saying well the census condiders them different developed places therefore it must be true. Why the designation on county borders is rediculous in certain areas. The census cuts UA in three places (SF/SJ DC/Balt and NYC/Philly) in the US not because they are not developed but because they force fit the populations into their designations, is there a break in developed space, absolutely not - if you tell me the developed space between Bucks and Mercer county is not large and highly dense and/or not intertwined it is pure hog wash - this is a perfect example of where Census cuts are forced and dont make sense to all areas
I also think to say that baltimore and DC are not intertwined is also absolute rediculousness. If the county line were moved in either direction or another smaller county (GA sized) half in Howard and half in Montco or PG county the whole thing would be a MSA today - this is why the criteria although uniform are not apples to aplles and to say Baltimore is 2.5 million and DC is 4 million and never the twain shall meet is equally proposterous. under that rationale you would say Atlanta is a larger area than is than is SF (the bay area) equally absurd. And Again I agree is a very large metro but the census data paints an innacurate picture at times
Let's be real here. The Baltimore/DC area eclipses Atlanta by quite a larger margin. DC/Baltimore is 8.4 million. Atlanta is 5.6 million over a much larger land area. Baltimore is twice as dense as ATL, it's a no brainer about which one is more urban. Atlanta is the largest and only principle city in it respective metro, so it doesn't have to share it's stature like Baltimore does. Baltimore is like Philly lite.
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