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Old 05-03-2020, 06:59 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
552 posts, read 400,536 times
Reputation: 1089

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
"Herd immunity" has gotten Sweden a higher rate of infection and death than neighboring countries. No lock downs has gotten Sweden a higher rate of infection than neighboring countries. I'd call that wrong. The rest of what you claim is not relevant to the topic at hand and simply saying it does not make it so.
It’s BARELY higher. Why are you so against Sweden’s model? Even the World Health Organization is staying that Sweden’s model should be followed.
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
7,269 posts, read 2,384,312 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
"Herd immunity" has gotten Sweden a higher rate of infection and death than neighboring countries. No lock downs has gotten Sweden a higher rate of infection than neighboring countries. I'd call that wrong. The rest of what you claim is not relevant to the topic at hand and simply saying it does not make it so.
High rate of infection? No kidding, clearly you don’t understand how herd immunity works.
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Old 05-03-2020, 02:46 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 4,793,956 times
Reputation: 19259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
The entire point of herd immunity is a higher rate of infection in an earlier timeline....how do you not get that? Clearly more people die as more people get infected.

The question is...is it more or is it the same in the end? Neighboring countries will eventually have to choose a path forward. When that time comes they will increase their infection rate and presumably their death count as well. You seem to believe that if we just hide long enough this will all just go away.

It's like saying Kansas handled this better than Connecticut because fewer people died. The reality is we won't know if that is true until this is all over. But.. Koko knows...Koko for president!!!
Perhaps that herd immunity system would be acceptable if it was based on volunteering to sacrifice one's self to forward the progress of the herd. In the absence of that all you have is mass victimization without any promise that any significant amount of immunity is being produced at all; so far the science does not bear that out.

Neighboring countries need make no such choices when preventing the spread of the virus can be accomplished through isolation and distancing.

It is apparent that I'm better informed about the virus as long as you tout the unproven theory of any type of immunity resulting from exposure to COVID-19. What has been proven so far is a higher rate of infection results in a higher rate of death.
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Old 05-03-2020, 02:49 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 4,793,956 times
Reputation: 19259
Quote:
Originally Posted by KY_Transplant View Post
It’s BARELY higher. Why are you so against Sweden’s model? Even the World Health Organization is staying that Sweden’s model should be followed.
A 73% higher rate of infection is not insignificant particularly when there has been no benefit achieved as a trade off.
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Old 05-03-2020, 02:51 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 4,793,956 times
Reputation: 19259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
High rate of infection? No kidding, clearly you don’t understand how herd immunity works.
What immunity? Developing antibodies has not been shown to produce immunity to COVID-19.
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Old 05-03-2020, 05:23 PM
 
4,927 posts, read 5,104,886 times
Reputation: 4233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
Perhaps that herd immunity system would be acceptable if it was based on volunteering to sacrifice one's self to forward the progress of the herd. In the absence of that all you have is mass victimization without any promise that any significant amount of immunity is being produced at all; so far the science does not bear that out.

Neighboring countries need make no such choices when preventing the spread of the virus can be accomplished through isolation and distancing.

It is apparent that I'm better informed about the virus as long as you tout the unproven theory of any type of immunity resulting from exposure to COVID-19. What has been proven so far is a higher rate of infection results in a higher rate of death.
What are you even talking about? Where’s your evidence that you don’t have some form of immunity after exposure? All the early research suggesting people were getting re-infected later found that they were just capturing dead instances of the virus. If one can be reinfected almost immediately there’s literally nothing we can do. A vaccine is worthless if anti-bodies provide no protection. Given what you just wrote your theory is that there is no immunity after exposure thus a vaccine is a waste of time.

I can prove to you that immunity can be achieved. We have recovered Covid-19 patients. If there was no way to achieve immunity the body couldn't recover from it. The very fact we have recovered people provides evidence of at least some temporary form of immunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
What immunity? Developing antibodies has not been shown to produce immunity to COVID-19.
Please cite your sources.

Last edited by mizzourah2006; 05-03-2020 at 05:40 PM..
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:33 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 4,793,956 times
Reputation: 19259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
What are you even talking about? Where’s your evidence that you don’t have some form of immunity after exposure? All the early research suggesting people were getting re-infected later found that they were just capturing dead instances of the virus. If one can be reinfected almost immediately there’s literally nothing we can do. A vaccine is worthless if anti-bodies provide no protection. Given what you just wrote your theory is that there is no immunity after exposure thus a vaccine is a waste of time.

I can prove to you that immunity can be achieved. We have recovered Covid-19 patients. If there was no way to achieve immunity the body couldn't recover from it. The very fact we have recovered people provides evidence of at least some temporary form of immunity.



Please cite your sources.
You don't get it. You claim there is immunity from having contracted the virus; that is your claim (your theory) to support. You won't find any for COVID-19. You have a failed understanding that immunity is what cures the virus or occurs as the virus is cured. But you said you can prove it - be my guest!
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Old 05-03-2020, 07:55 PM
 
4,927 posts, read 5,104,886 times
Reputation: 4233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
You don't get it. You claim there is immunity from having contracted the virus; that is your claim (your theory) to support. You won't find any for COVID-19. You have a failed understanding that immunity is what cures the virus or occurs as the virus is cured. But you said you can prove it - be my guest!
Walk me through how one recovers from a virus. I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

Does the virus just die? Does it move on? Or does your body develop anti-bodies to fight it off? If it does what would one call that? How can the body "cure" itself of a virus if not via anti-bodies that can fight it off? And.....how does immunity work, if not via the body's ability to fight off a virus?

By default the virus either kills the host or one develops anti-bodies to fight it off. By fighting off the virus you've achieved immunity. Now whether or not that immunity is long lived is a different question similar to the flu. But that's a different question all together.
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:13 PM
 
8,977 posts, read 4,793,956 times
Reputation: 19259
Quote:
Originally Posted by mizzourah2006 View Post
Walk me through how one recovers from a virus. I guess I'm just not smart enough to understand. Perhaps you can explain it to me.

Does the virus just die? Does it move on? Or does your body develop anti-bodies to fight it off? If it does what would one call that? How can the body "cure" itself of a virus if not via anti-bodies that can fight it off? And.....how does immunity work, if not via the body's ability to fight off a virus?

By default the virus either kills the host or one develops anti-bodies to fight it off. By fighting off the virus you've achieved immunity. Now whether or not that immunity is long lived is a different question similar to the flu. But that's a different question all together.
It's not my place to teach you about biology and this is not the place but the very short answer is yes, the human body develops antibodies which can fight off the virus. That, in and of itself, does nothing to provide immunity. Antibodies generally may or may not provide some degree of immunity for some unknown period of time.

Your claim that "fighting off the virus (means) you've achieved immunity" is factually incorrect.
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Old 05-03-2020, 08:28 PM
 
4,927 posts, read 5,104,886 times
Reputation: 4233
Quote:
Originally Posted by kokonutty View Post
It's not my place to teach you about biology and this is not the place but the very short answer is yes, the human body develops antibodies which can fight off the virus. That, in and of itself, does nothing to provide immunity. Antibodies generally may or may not provide some degree of immunity for some unknown period of time.

Your claim that "fighting off the virus (means) you've achieved immunity" is factually incorrect.
It is not..but ok. The very fact that you developed antibodies to fight off that specific virus strand is evidence of temporary immunity or you would not have killed the virus.

I'm still having trouble understanding your entire point here. Let's say you're right and there is no way to achieve immunity from this. Then a vaccine is not possible, so this is our new reality forever. At that point does it matter whether Sweden's method works or not because eventually it will be everyone's method. I doubt we continue to live like we're living today forever.
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