teacher pay (employment, score, logic, highest)

[NCyank]

Complaining about working 30 hours outside of classroom time all while posting on internet forums DURING SCHOOL HOURS!!!

No sympathy from me....I'd tell you what I tell my daughter when she gets distracted. When you are working, WORK. When your work is done you can do other things. If you do other things while you should be working I don't want to hear about how long you 'work'.

I disagree on relationship building. Some of the kids who sit in my room like a rock will open up and work for me one on one. For them, there is nothing I could do in the classroom to get them to participate. Often my most disruptive studenst just need some attention. Building relationships IS part of my job. Sometimes, it's the only way to reach a student.

I am shifting to scheduled hours. I didn't expect the kind of response I've gotten to tutoring.

Ivory, I'll say again what others have told you. You teach high school students, not little kids. If they don't participate in class that is their choice. The relationship is teacher-student...you teach, they learn. If they are disruptive and need 'attention' they can go to the office to get it. Does that mean you don't interact on any other level, no. But it needs to be on your terms not by their demands.
You aren't a private tutor who is paid to work one-on-one with students and if a student would sit like a rock in your classroom you shouldn't give them one minute of extra time. These kids are going to go on to college and/or real jobs in a short amount of time and they need to sink or swim on their own. You aren't 'helping' them by hand holding outside of class. Worse yet, you are doing yourself, your family, and your other students a great disservice by catering to those who won't do the minimum on their own.

[girlbuffalo1]

I think the emotional stress far outweighs the pay. My father taught for 36 years--4th and 5th grade towards the end of his career the kids were so bad that he fell into a depression over it--kids putting tacks on his chair or pushing the stool out from under him--parents slapping him in the face because their bad apple kid is failing--just ridiculous!

Being the daughter of a teacher I rode to school with my dad and waited until he was done to go home. I would say on average we'd get there about a half hour early 7:30 or so and stay until around 5-5:30 pm--he would then after supper grade papers for another hour or so. Yes it was great having the summers for time together but really I think teachers need the mental break!

[marmac]

At our school teachers are thre from 8:00 til 4:30 ( kids leave at 3:15)

The parking lot is empty after 4:30

I think our district has some great teachers and I would not expect them to hang around til 5:00-5:30.

I once knew a nurse whose family life got torn apart ( ending in divorce) cuz she took it upon herself to stay 24 hours at the hospital cuz she believed her patients needed her.

One can be a professional w/o staying beyond their required work hours.

[jimhcom]

The same can be said for you. Even if your job sucks there are lots of people losing their homes because they do not have one. Save your self righteousness, its not warranted

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My job does not suck; it is just not as cushy as yours.

Based on what? Your personal opinion? I at least walked the walk, I was in industry for years and worked on a research vessel for 2 years. I know hard work both physical and otherwise. Teaching is not EASY.

Your job can be done by a 60yr old lady. Real tough! LOL

You are. Whining about it that is. Since it is such an easy job how come there has been a shortage of science and math teachers for years? And your point about other professions is nonsense. YOU are the one making the claim that teaching is so easy, YOU could have become a teacher. YOU chose not to. YOU are the whiner here, not the other way around.

The reason there is such a shortage of science and math teachers is due to the failure of schools to teach students those subjects competently. Check where the US ranks in TIMSS scores! Academic Failure - International Test Scores - Poor TIMSS Results

I teach at the number 4 public school district in the country, you have no idea what you are talking about. Flawed thinking? One of my students just got his senior research published. We are an incredibly successful school and that is in part to the teachers. We go WAY above and beyond everyday.

Way above what? According to TIMSS scores the bar is not set very high. Being the best in a substandard category shows you are doing better than most, but how good is that in comparison with the best?

I have never complained about my pay because that was my CHOICE. I CHOSE less pay I only point it out because you are comparing my salary and work load to yours. Thats apples to oranges, if you want to compare use another white collar job with the same education level. Then we can talk.

Perhaps you missed the point of the OP's post. It was about how low teachers are paid. Pay on basis of education level is stupid. Pay should be based on performance. Being good at taking classes is no indication of effectiveness teaching classes.

Mediocre? My state has one of the best public school system, and the high property taxes that go with it. Showing once and for all if you want a good school system you better be willing to pay.

As I said before best in relation to what? A national system that is a train wreck? And once again you demonstrate your flawed logic in attempting to link the taxes where you live with performance. Would you like me to provide you with countries which spend far less per pupil and have higher test scores than the US.

I am calling BS. Maybe people are CHOOSING not to or maybe they do not have the abilities to make it in college but ANYONE can go. My parents died while I was in college. I had to take responsibility for my siblings. I still was able to finish, just had to make ridiculous sacrifices, including my intended career.

Wow I am impressed, you really had it tough. Try being on your own and working until midnight @ $1.65hr every night to support yourself while in High School.

If your job requires you to break the law (aka 20-30 hr shifts) you should call OSHA. But since I think you are full of something that does not smell quite right I doubt you will do that.

My job does not require me to break the law; essential public services are required to keep going regardless of the circumstances.

2.

Who cares what you do? You CHOSE your job, this is not a communist nation where you were assigned to some work camp. If your job is sooooo bad than quit. Get another one. Either way man up already, sheesh.

Do not hide behind your computer making statements you would not have the courage to say to my face. You are the one with a job dominated by women.
I have a mans job.

Apparently your reading comprehension matches your math skills. I REPLIED to a comment you made where you complained how much easier my job is than yours and how much more money I make. Boo Hoo. I am better educated. Of course I should make more. I only brought up industry salaries to point out how foolish and inept your comparison was.

Your job is easier than mine, and no you do not make more money than me, in fact you don't even make half of what I do. You are also not better educated; you simply have more formal schooling.

BS AGAIN from you. I am not entitled to more money, but I am surely earn every penny I make. I even stated that my salary is FAIR because I went into this career knowing what I would make. I would have to be some sort of pathetic moron to pick a career and then complain about how hard it was and how many hours I work and how much easier everyone else has it.

I am glad you admit you are worth no more than you make. The marketplace decides what we all are worth. Again I never complained. I simply stated facts. There are a multitude of jobs harder than yours. Get over it.

[CaliTerp07]

Originally Posted by jimhcom

I am glad you admit you are worth no more than you make. The marketplace decides what we all are worth. Again I never complained. I simply stated facts. There are a multitude of jobs harder than yours. Get over it.

You're defining "hard" as "physically strenuous". I'd say that's a pretty loose definition of the word.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by tgbwc

You give extra help during school hours by adapting assignments, having flexible groups, utilizing instructional assistants, etc. School policy is that homework should be able to be completed independently. So there shouldn't be a need to help with homewok. Also, as we get closer to the end of year testing, we have some after school groups that meet for an hour twice a week for test taking skills, but teachers get paid per hour for that.

Wow. Completely different here. Maybe its a subject or grade level issue but there are some children that cannot grasp elements of chemistry without individual help. There is no way to do that during school unless you stop a class and work individually with each child until they are caught up.

And I am not talking about help with homework, I am talking about help in homework so much as help with the advanced topics in the class.

[jimhcom]

Originally Posted by CaliTerp07

You're defining "hard" as "physically strenuous". I'd say that's a pretty loose definition of the word.

I am defining "hard" as the opposite of easy.
That can be physically, or mentally.
It can also include working under uncomfortable or painful conditions.
It can also include working long hours, or long periods without breaks.
It can also include working at tasks difficult to accomplish.
It can also include lifting heavy weight.
It can also include repetitive actions using the same muscle group.
It can also include work which is stressful.
It can also include work which is dangerous.
It can also include work where you encounter harassment, mental, or physical abuse.

Feel free to add any more definitions you would like, then compare the number and degree of these conditions to various jobs in the marketplace.

[lkb0714]

Originally Posted by jimhcom

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My job does not suck; it is just not as cushy as yours.

Hey, you are the one whining here not me.

Your job can be done by a 60yr old lady. Real tough! LOL

I seriously doubt that. Yesterday we were trawling for fish stock assessment and completing bottom grabs using a SmithMac that weighs over 500lbs on board our school research vessel. Doubt you could do any of that.

Way above what? According to TIMSS scores the bar is not set very high. Being the best in a substandard category shows you are doing better than most, but how good is that in comparison with the best?

This year I had 8 out of my 20 kids who took the sat II get PERFECT scores. That is an international test. That is amazing by any standard.

Perhaps you missed the point of the OP's post. It was about how low teachers are paid. Pay on basis of education level is stupid. Pay should be based on performance. Being good at taking classes is no indication of effectiveness teaching classes.

Actually research shows that the single best indicator for teacher effectiveness when hiring is degree of education paired with exclusivity of college attended.

Fine, pay me based on my students achievement. We have over 30% of our kids go Ivy League. Every single child in my school was advanced proficient on the HSPA. How much MORE should I make based on those types of measures?

As I said before best in relation to what? A national system that is a train wreck? And once again you demonstrate your flawed logic in attempting to link the taxes where you live with performance. Would you like me to provide you with countries which spend far less per pupil and have higher test scores than the US.

See above. Our SAT scores, standardized test scores, and college acceptances are way off the charts. What would the teachers in my school get paid based on your method?

Wow I am impressed, you really had it tough. Try being on your own and working until midnight @ $1.65hr every night to support yourself while in High School.

More whining.

My job does not require me to break the law; essential public services are required to keep going regardless of the circumstances.

Like what?

Do not hide behind your computer making statements you would not have the courage to say to my face. You are the one with a job dominated by women.
I have a mans job.

You moron, I am a woman and this WOMAN would say all of this to your face.

I have had a "man's" job working on a 250+ft research vessel in 40 ft seas in the Gulf of Maine during some serious storms. Teaching is still not easy.

Your job is easier than mine, and no you do not make more money than me, in fact you don't even make half of what I do. You are also not better educated; you simply have more formal schooling.

Maybe you need to learn what educated means

I am glad you admit you are worth no more than you make.

Based on your own reasoning I am worth far more than I am being paid because I have some of the most successful students in the nation.

You lack reading comprehension. I said "entitled", not worth. The marketplace decides what we all are worth.

Again I never complained. I simply stated facts. There are a multitude of jobs harder than yours. Get over it.

And multitudes harder than yours. Based on that reasoning lets lower your wages. And yes you whine and complain. Excessively.

[ccr4tigers]

Originally Posted by jimhcom

What you fail to realize is that everyone has first hand knowledge of what teachers do because we all spent at least 12 years watching them do it. Teachers on the other hand have little or no practical knowledge of what most of us do.

I would agree with you that teachers do not have knowledge of what "most of us do". However, you are not "most of us" either. You have your job. Perhaps you have had many jobs. That is your perspective. Just like I certainly don't know what it is like to be a surgeon staring into someone's open chest cavity. And you probably don't know what it is like to work in a 3rd world country in Africa, hand mixing concrete everyday to build a "hospital", and then watch half of your neighbors die of AIDS. Also, you did not watch all that teachers do for 12 years, which is the point that everyone has been trying to make to you on this forum. Teaching requires planning. Lots and lots of planning. Those things happen outside of the classroom. And, you are right that there are teachers who don't do more than they are contracted to do. Those teachers are the ones that are craptastic at their jobs. If you want to be a good teacher, you work extra hours.

However, this all so completely beside the point. Just because I am not currently hand mixing concrete anymore, does not invalidate what I do now. All this back and forth about whose job is easier or harder is ridiculous. I have not worked your job. I therefore don't have a single opinion about your pay, how hard you work, your life, etc. You have not been a teacher. You do not know what you are talking about. Sorry. You don't.

It has become rather apparent from your posts that somewhere, some teacher or state employee hacked you off and now you are bitter. Guess what? There are terrible teachers out there. Guess what? There are terrible people in all positions. I am not martyr. I like my job. That is why I do it. I love those kids. That is why I stay late and lead clubs and go to basketball games.

If you love your job, or love your pay, good for you. If you don't, then I am sorry. I hope you find something you like more. If you don't, then apologize that life dealt you a tough hand. However, I don't see how attacking a profession that is supposed to help educate our future generations will in any way make your situation better. If you really believe that teaching is so silly, so beneath you, perhaps you should run for some public office or lobby for reforms. However, in the meantime I am going to keep doing my job, that I love. A job that is awesome and interesting and exciting. A job, that frankly is noble and is more than a job. You can laugh at me for that, or even look down on me. I really don't care.

And finally, you did define "hard" rather loosely. I agree that there are many, many jobs that from a physical perspective make my job look like a cakewalk. However, pretty much any office job would be in that same boat. Still, I wonder how often you go home carrying a burden for some kid. Perhaps it is a kid who, despite the fact that her father molests her, is being returned to his custody because he has "changed". That is just one example. Certainly I have worked jobs that are much "harder" by your definition, but I have never worked in a field that has effected my stress level or emotions like this one. But, maybe that is beneath you as well.

[David674UT]

Teachers don't get paid enough for all the s*it they have to go through from students and govt.