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What do mean by "always was Russian". It is a clear distortion and exaggeration you should save for RT. Crimea is occupied territory of Ukraine just like Sudetenland was an occupied territory of Chech republic, high percentage of colloborants in either region does not change the fact of occupation. Ethnic Russians were shipped to Crimea to fill space left after Crimean tartarts etc. were cleansed after WWII while Germans lived in Sudetenland for a good thousand years. Russian Empire occupied Crimea at the end of 18th century, ethic Russians became a majority only after WWII cleansing of Tartars etc.. Ukraine has as much rights to Russian Empire legacy as Russian Federation. Russian Federation commited gross violation of International law by annexing Crimea, the first post WWII annexion was like a pile of crap Putin's Russia dumped on the people who died in WW2.
That is true that Russian's made the majority of the population only after WWII, but prior to that it was minority majority region, no one ethnic group made a clear majority, and the Tatars never made a clear majority, except for maybe a very long time ago.
as you can see it wasn't just Russians that were "shipped" in after WWII but also Ukrainians and Belarusians too. And Tatars weren't the only ones deported, but also Germans, Greeks and Bulgarians.
That is true that Russian's made the majority of the population only after WWII, but prior to that it was minority majority region, no one ethnic group made a clear majority, and the Tatars never made a clear majority, except for maybe a very long time ago.
as you can see it wasn't just Russians that were "shipped" in after WWII but also Ukrainians and Belarusians too. And Tatars weren't the only ones deported, but also Germans, Greeks and Bulgarians.
Nice choice of the time frame. Soviets were not the only genocidal force in Crimea, before the Soviets Russian Empire ethnically cleansed the area from its semi nomadic population with millions dead or displaced. After Crimean War of 1856 tartars were decimated to become a minority in their ancestral lands so try 1800 as a starting point. It is true that Empires use all the ethnic groups to do dirty jobs, and Ukrainians were used extensively as cannon fodder and slave labor, but when it is time to claim something desirable all those ethnic slave groups just fade in an invisible background and Russians feel entitled to claim it all.
Last edited by RememberMee; 10-27-2017 at 09:19 AM..
Those would seem to be the exceptions though. You're right that this isn't purely about ethnicity, but politics would tend to shape one's ethnic identity in this particular case. For example, why would pro-Russian self-declared Ukrainians really even exist? For most pro-Russian people, Ukrainians are a constituent of the Russian people. For a pro-Ukrainian Russian, the dynamic is different. But if he lives in Ukraine and perhaps has any ancestry from Donbass or even Kuban, for example, he might claim Ukrainian ethnicity. So pro-Ukrainian ethnic Russians are probably more numerous than vice versa, but ethnicity has a clear influence.
On the other hand, German-Americans and Italian-Americans fought en masse for America in WWII in spite of Germany and Italy being on the opposite side. Ethnicity had almost no impact on the loyalties of these two ethnicities in the war. I can tell you that while many Italian-Americans once admired Mussolini, support for him almost completely vanished after Italy declared war on America. Very different examples.
It is all about ethnicity. If you look at the area Russians managed to control by proxies, most of the Ukrainians living there were not just Russified, they lost their ukrainian identity to the point of denying it exists. It is something that only the most rabid Russian nazis of Chornaya Sotnya claim. Assimilation into an imperial collective is a messy business, once it passes some critical point converts may become more hostile to their old ethnic group than imperial ideologues themselves. Language is just a piece of identity puzzle.
Nice choice of the time frame. Soviets were not the only genocidal force in Crimea, before the Soviets Russian Empire ethnically cleansed the area from its semi nomadic population with millions dead or displaced. After Crimean War of 1856 tartars were decimated to become a minority in their ancestral lands so try 1800 as a starting point. It is true that Empires use all the ethnic groups to do dirty jobs, and Ukrainians were used extensively as cannon fodder and slave labor, but when it is time to claim something desirable all those ethnic slave groups just fade in an invisible background and Russians feel entitled to claim it all.
So do you have that data? Perhaps the Ottomans kept a census?
. It is all about ethnicity. If you look at the area Russians managed to control by proxies, most of the Ukrainians living there were not just Russified, they lost their ukrainian identity to the point of denying it exists. It is something that only the most rabid Russian nazis of Chornaya Sotnya claim. Assimilation into an imperial collective is a messy business, once it passes some critical point converts may become more hostile to their old ethnic group than imperial ideologues themselves. Language is just a piece of identity puzzle.
That is true Ukrainians in Russia were Russified to such an extant that Ukrainian heritage has been forgotten. You just have to look at Krasnodar Krai to see the results of Soviet Russification.
However in Ukraine there was a lot of Ukrainianization during soviet times, particularly in the cities (though to not the same extant as Russification), for instance in Kiev
Also the increase in Ukrainian could be explained by rural people moving in, but there is defiantly a Ukrainianization after the fall of the Soviet Union, 57.6% up to 72.1% in 12 years. Though it could be just a ton of Russians moving to Russia?
I can tell you that while many Italian-Americans once admired Mussolini, support for him almost completely vanished after Italy declared war on America. Very different examples.
This is the same thing for former pro Russians in Ukraine (whether they identify as ethnic Ukrainians or not). After they were attacked, the vast majority have completely lost their love for their brother nation. They will be friendly terms when Putin and his system are removed and of course they stop attacking Ukraine for choosing a European path.
What people used to identify themselves in the Soviet Union when the census was taken doesn't really apply anymore since the nations are now distinct. Using language as some sort of identification of ethnicity is spurious. A very large part of Ukrainians have for example a parent from Russia but this was mostly when they were one country so what did it mean to their ethnic heritage. Since I personally know pro Russian ethnic Ukrainians and pro Ukrainian ethnic Russians in SE Ukraine, I am not making it up. Loyalty to a nation comes more from what language was spoken at home or what city or village you grew up in.
Putin is trying to reach out to pro Russians in Ukraine to support his cause. This is evidenced by his propaganda news networks there and again I know this first hand. Just recently saw a show where they explained the dangers of getting a new passport to be able to visit Europe. Language is an issue here because he can't reach Ukrainian speakers as effectively. His words only reach the older population who are dreaming of what he is selling (some sort of return to a glorious reunion with Russia like the USSR days with promises of higher standards of living). His supporters in the Donbas thought this was coming. So did Crimeans. They are still waiting...
Russia is trying everything it can to convince people in Ukraine that being part of Russia is better for them than being part of Europe. That's actually what this war is about at its core, keeping Ukraine from pursuing a path to become like Poland with its higher lifestyle based on European association, rules and anti corruption structure of government. Putin cannot compete with Poland on a desirability basis so he will fight anyway he can including appealing to people's shared ethnicity and destabilizing Ukraine to convince people there that they won't have a better life until they return to his direction.
This is really remarkable. It's way higher than it ever used to be. Ukrainians are up from 77.8% in 2001, while ethnic Russians are down from 17.3% in 2001.
More evidence yet that Ukrainian citizens are seeing themselves as Ukrainians more than ever before. The cause? Russian aggression in Ukraine, obviously. Russian society, including the highest levels of the Kremlin, is in deep denial about the extent of the paradigm shift they've precipitated in Ukraine. As one Russian user even speculated in this very thread, they think an all-out Russian invasion of Ukraine would be welcomed by a critical part of the population. They have no idea how wrong they are.
Don't "read more" on UNIAN - it's the site of Ukrainian make-believe propaganda)))
A big part of this actually is the definition of what being a Ukrainian means. I know 10 years ago being a real "Ukrainian" was understood by many to be like Yuschenko and pro Bandera and all that. The nationalists (fascisti) from Lvov were the ones carrying the banner of being real Ukrainians. This has changed since the revolution, and I know from my own contacts in the south-east they are reawakening to the fact that they are also Ukrainians and newly anti Russian but still anti Bandera. I suspect its this way across much of central and eastern Ukraine now. A lot of the resentment against Russia is not just the war but also they got tired of seeing the lies about Ukraine pushed on the Russian news (which they watched because its their language). Everyone I know there (in their 30s and 40s) stopped watching Russian news.
The shift is even more pronounced generationaly. The majority of "pro Russian" Ukrainians left are over 40 at least. This will be a permanent shift because the younger ones don't remember when the 2 countries were one. I will say though that the Kremlin has finally begun to understand what they have done. This is so obvious to anyone who goes there that there is no way that they don't all know it by now.
Their only hope is that Ukraine fails to reform and a new restart happens. Even then, Putin's Russia will have to reform enough itself to be presented as an attractive model for the next Ukrainian system. And they have to stop the war in the east. One can hold out hope I guess.
It hasn't really changed, the only "true" Ukrainian identity is the one of the Western part.
So tell your friends to be careful, they might be accused of "separatism" and end up in SBU cellars all the same.
Ukrainians of the "Eastern variety" will never be of the same "quality" and can't be trusted.
I know people who speak Russian. I am also very good with media, and can gather a lot of information from all kinds of sources. I'm not stuck only with CNN and BBC.
It's not enough to "know people who speak Russian," you need to know people that speak Russia AND profess different view points ( ditto same goes to Ukrainians.)
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