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Russian imperial mythology is removed from the facts, actually Russia in all its incarnations destroyed facts and manufactured myths, that is the only unquestionable fact of Russian history. What "center of development" you are talking about? Development of what? Manufacturing historical continuity is universal imperial trick, for some reason empires feel compelled to trace their origins back into obscurity in order to claim the present.
The fact is that Kievan Rus never was a monolythic entity, and whatever it was it started to fall apart well before Mongols finished it off. Kievan settlers colonized the land of the finni ugric tribes which is Russia now and just like American colonists 700 years after they felt burdened by nominal Kiev' authority. The original North Eastern separatists up in what is Russia nowadays not just acquired independence from Kiev, they invaded and destroyed metropolital capital, which further accelerated the decline of whatever Kievan Rus was at the time. Slavic colonizers of the finnish swamps and forests absorbed so much of finno ugric element, it is silly to speak about any continuity even in genetic terms. And then came Mongols. Much unlike what is now Ukraine, North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus was incorporated in the Mongol Empire as vassal lands, all its rulers owed their power to Mongols, they had to secure a permit to rule their fiefdoms from Mongols, which involved marrying in the Mongol ruling caste, so at the end Vassals of Mongols in the North Eastern finno ugric Rus resembled Mongols genetically quite a bit, not speaking of borrowing asiatic despotism from Mongols, which is alive and well to this day. Moscow vassals of Mongols turned out to be the shrewdest the most bloody and treacherous bunch, they used Mongol help to grow their power and then wrestled independence from the cold hands of the dying Mongol founders of Russia. Naturally the bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire wanted more, they destroyed their neighbors in the Finno slavic lands and concocted the first continuity myths to claim Ukrainian lands, but what is known as Russian imperial mythology and even language you speak was created by Germans and other European adventurists in 18th century who used Russians as clay for their ambitions. That is some continuity you are talking there comrade.
As for orthodoxy, Moscow never was a center of Orthodoxy, neither intellectual nor spiritual, it is only after Muscovites occupied Kiev in 17th century and expatriated educated Kievan monks to Moscow to make sense out of the contradicting nonsense of Muscovite theology Moscow became an administrative orthodox center, but Moscow based orthodoxy was too busy prostituting religion on behalf of Russian state to achieve any prominence and respect outside of the Russian nazi imperialist circles.
"North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands.......North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands\\\\\\\\\ ad infinitum.
Since Ukrainian craziness is of special kind, let me cure your perpetual state of confusion in a very simple way;
This is the map of Kievan Rus - yeah, that one, "non-monolithic entity" in Ukrainian imagination.
See Kiev there? Now move up North and East ( no, NOT towards Finns, with whom you are so obsessed; Finns - that's even more North and West. Concentrate now on Suzdal-Vladimir principality ( part of Kievan Rus.) That's where the power of Kievan Rus moved, after the prince of this particular principality sacked Kiev.
His name was Andrey Bogolubsky, and it happened in 1169. For 5 years Bogolubsky was grand prince of Kievan Russia, but he didn't rule from Kiev already, but from Vladimir. The former capital on Dnepr river surrendered its position, yet "Kievan Rus" as a state was still there just fine. When Andrey Bogolubsky was assassinated in 1174, his brother Vsevolod the Big Nest succeeded as the grand prince of Vladimir and ruler of Russian nation.
When Vsevolod died in 1212, his sons and nephews fought over the sucession, and province of Suzdalia ( with Vladimir as capitol) split into a number of independent districts, each ruled by a descendant.
This was already the time when Russian ( still Kievan Rus) state became weakened, and in 1237 was attacked by Mongols.
Now pay attention that Moscow was a small fort in Suzdal principality ( mentioned for the first time back in 1147)- a summer retreat for Yuri Dolgoruky, prince of Kiev and father of Andrey Bogolubsky,. And this fort grew later into town, and then principality that played the utmost important role for the future of the country. But it didn't happen until Alexander Nevsky ( yet another prince of Kiev) willed Moscow to his youngest son Daniil in 1263.
There you have it, so quit muddying waters with your never-ending "North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus" vs "Great Ukraine" already)))
"Ukraine" ( as it logically follows from history) is not more than what I've identified it earlier - the leftovers of the initial state left behind, when the new cultural/spiritual center of the state moved eastward, in more secure location.
Russian imperial mythology is removed from the facts, actually Russia in all its incarnations destroyed facts and manufactured myths, that is the only unquestionable fact of Russian history. What "center of development" you are talking about? Development of what? Manufacturing historical continuity is universal imperial trick, for some reason empires feel compelled to trace their origins back into obscurity in order to claim the present.
The fact is that Kievan Rus never was a monolythic entity, and whatever it was it started to fall apart well before Mongols finished it off. Kievan settlers colonized the land of the finni ugric tribes which is Russia now and just like American colonists 700 years after they felt burdened by nominal Kiev' authority. The original North Eastern separatists up in what is Russia nowadays not just acquired independence from Kiev, they invaded and destroyed metropolital capital, which further accelerated the decline of whatever Kievan Rus was at the time. Slavic colonizers of the finnish swamps and forests absorbed so much of finno ugric element, it is silly to speak about any continuity even in genetic terms. And then came Mongols. Much unlike what is now Ukraine, North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus was incorporated in the Mongol Empire as vassal lands, all its rulers owed their power to Mongols, they had to secure a permit to rule their fiefdoms from Mongols, which involved marrying in the Mongol ruling caste, so at the end Vassals of Mongols in the North Eastern finno ugric Rus resembled Mongols genetically quite a bit, not speaking of borrowing asiatic despotism from Mongols, which is alive and well to this day. Moscow vassals of Mongols turned out to be the shrewdest the most bloody and treacherous bunch, they used Mongol help to grow their power and then wrestled independence from the cold hands of the dying Mongol founders of Russia. Naturally the bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire wanted more, they destroyed their neighbors in the Finno slavic lands and concocted the first continuity myths to claim Ukrainian lands, but what is known as Russian imperial mythology and even language you speak was created by Germans and other European adventurists in 18th century who used Russians as clay for their ambitions. That is some continuity you are talking there comrade.
As for orthodoxy, Moscow never was a center of Orthodoxy, neither intellectual nor spiritual, it is only after Muscovites occupied Kiev in 17th century and expatriated educated Kievan monks to Moscow to make sense out of the contradicting nonsense of Muscovite theology Moscow became an administrative orthodox center, but Moscow based orthodoxy was too busy prostituting religion on behalf of Russian state to achieve any prominence and respect outside of the Russian nazi imperialist circles.
I think you need to review some history lessons my friend, you seem to be confusing history with fan fiction. Here is a good video to start with, you don't have to watch the whole thing, just the first 10 minutes or so should suffice.
"North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands.......North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus finni ugric tribes finnish swamps bloody bastard of the Mongol Empire Moscow vassals of Mongols Mongol founders of Russia Finno slavic lands\\\\\\\\\ ad infinitum.
Since Ukrainian craziness is of special kind, let me cure your perpetual state of confusion in a very simple way;
This is the map of Kievan Rus - yeah, that one, "non-monolithic entity" in Ukrainian imagination.
See Kiev there? Now move up North and East ( no, NOT towards Finns, with whom you are so obsessed; Finns - that's even more North and West. Concentrate now on Suzdal-Vladimir principality ( part of Kievan Rus.) That's where , after the prince of this particular principality sacked Kiev.
His name was Andrey Bogolubsky, and it happened in 1169. For 5 years Bogolubsky was grand prince of Kievan Russia, but he didn't rule from Kiev already, but from Vladimir. The former capital on Dnepr river surrendered its position, yet "Kievan Rus" as a state was still there just fine. When Andrey Bogolubsky was assassinated in 1174, his brother Vsevolod the Big Nest succeeded as the grand prince of Vladimir and ruler of Russian nation.
When Vsevolod died in 1212, his sons and nephews fought over the sucession, and province of Suzdalia ( with Vladimir as capitol) split into a number of independent districts, each ruled by a descendant.
This was already the time when Russian ( still Kievan Rus) state became weakened, and in 1237 was attacked by Mongols.
Now pay attention that Moscow was a small fort in Suzdal principality ( mentioned for the first time back in 1147)- a summer retreat for Yuri Dolgoruky, prince of Kiev and father of Andrey Bogolubsky,. And this fort grew later into town, and then principality that played the utmost important role for the future of the country. But it didn't happen until Alexander Nevsky ( yet another prince of Kiev) willed Moscow to his youngest son Daniil in 1263.
There you have it, so quit muddying waters with your never-ending "North Eastern Finno Ugric Rus" vs "Great Ukraine" already)))
"Ukraine" ( as it logically follows from history) is not more than what I've identified it earlier - the leftovers of the initial state left behind, when the new cultural/spiritual center of the state moved eastward, in more secure location.
"Kiev surrendered its position", "the power of kievan Rus moved" what does that abstract nonsense even mean? Those phrases are meaningless slogans. Bogolyubsky sacked and destroyed Kiev in 1169, Kievan residents expected it to be just another feudal skirmish over the nominal Kievan title but it turned out to be full scale massacre and plunder previously reserved only for the foreign cities. And then Bogolyubsky just moved back to his native Finno Ugric swamps where he felt at home much unlike foreign to him Kiev. It is mighty strange behavior for a grand prince of Kievan Rus. But according to you Bogolyubsky took "power of kiev" with him to Finno Ugric swamps of what is now Russia. Fantasy and Russian imperial mythology have a lot in common.
Bogolyubsky genetically was more asiatic than slavic, but after Mongol conquest asiatic element diluted Russian vassals blood to the point when only slavic names remained. Mongols are true creators of Russian state, Moscow vassalls of the Golden Horde secured the most support from the Mother Horde to grow Moscow ulus/principality at the expense of the less shrewd kin . Alexander Nevsky was a Mongol vassall who kept the principalities and city states as vassals to the Mongols. That is your origin comrade. As for finno ugric element much what is Western Russia today was populated by finno ugric tribes before slavic colonization. Do not be ashamed of your heritage.
Last edited by RememberMee; 11-13-2017 at 04:31 PM..
Erasure. You're following an incontinent elephant with a bucket and shovel.
Comrade Scrat I will not let you two happy Russian nazi birds to spout lies, bigotry, imperial fairytales and nonsense in this thread, I will add my comments to whatever propaganda nonsense you'll come up with. And then I'll get tired and you two will be able to nest in this thread uninterrupted, and then I'll be back to see if you two feel better.
Comrade Scrat I will not let you two happy Russian nazi birds to spout lies, bigotry, imperial fairytales and nonsense in this thread, I will add my comments to whatever propaganda nonsense you'll come up with. And then I'll get tired and you two will be able to nest in this thread uninterrupted, and then I'll be back to see if you two feel better.
I'm sure you always feel better after a romp here. I'm just waiting to see if you're going to miss a beat and break your wrist.
I'm sure you always feel better after a romp here. I'm just waiting to see if you're going to miss a beat and break your wrist.
you are projecting some other fantasies of yours here, Restoration of the Russian Reich + masturbation seem to be your favorite subjects. I dont even want to know what you do with yourself while watching RT, I guess that is better than patrolling dark alleys in your town but not by much.
"Kiev surrendered its position", "the power of kievan Rus moved" what does that abstract nonsense even mean? Those phrases are meaningless slogans.
Bogolyubsky sacked and destroyed Kiev in 1169, Kievan residents expected it to be just another feudal skirmish over the nominal Kievan title but it turned out to be full scale massacre and plunder previously reserved only for the foreign cities.
This was more than just "skirmish," - this was already a major upheaval from the northern part of a state, where Bogolubsky ( backed by coalition of 11 other princes) contested the power of Kiev - both state and religious power. Don't forget that in 1162, Bogolyubsky sent an embassy to Constantinople, lobbying for a separate metropolitan see in Vladimir.
"And with the prince's letter of accord there journeyed to Byzantium the candidate chosen by the prince, – the Suzdal' archimandrite Theodore (Feodor). Patriarch Luke Chrysobergos however consented to consecrate Theodore only as bishop of Vladimir, but not as metropolitan. Yet at the same time, wanting to uphold the position of Prince Andrew as the most powerful amongst the rulers of the Russian Land, the patriarch dignified bishop Theodore with the right to wear the "white klobuk" (hierarch's headgarb), which in ancient Rus' was a distinctive sign of churchly autonomy – a recognition of esteem likewise granted the archbishop of Novgorod by his white klobuk. Evidently, since the Russian chronicles bespeak bishop Theodore with the title of "White Klobuk", much later historians sometimes call him "an autocephalous bishop"."
So no, we are talking already about something more serious than just your "another feudal skirmish," judging by the amount of icons/church treasuries that Bogolubsky moved to his domain. (He was canonized after all.)
Not to mention that Bogoluybsky challenged the regular Rota system, under which the succession was practiced in Kiev Russia and adhered to the appanage instead.
Quote:
And then Bogolyubsky just moved back to his native Finno Ugric swamps where he felt at home much unlike foreign to him Kiev. It is mighty strange behavior for a grand prince of Kievan Rus. But according to you Bogolyubsky took "power of kiev" with him to Finno Ugric swamps of what is now Russia. Fantasy and Russsian imperial mythology have a lot in common.
Swamp - that's in collective Ukrainian heads, but this is city of Vladimir
Quote:
Bogolyubsky genetically was more asiatic than slavic,
Yes his mother was Cuman princess, but what do you do, if Yury Dolgorukiy, Grand Prince of Kiev decided to marry a Cuman woman, instead of your blue-eyed fair maiden of aryan blood?
By the way Bogolubsky's son followed the same path and married Queen Tamar of Georgia - oh horror of horrors, according to you)))
Quote:
but after Mongol conquest asiatic element diluted Russian vassals blood to the point when only slavic names remained. Mongols are true creators of Russian state, Moscow vassalls of the Golden Horde secured the most support from the Mother Horde to grow Moscow ulus/principality at the expense of the less shrewd kin . Alexander Nevsky was a Mongol vassall who kept the principalities and city states as vassals to the Mongols.
Oh back to verbal diarrhea I see...
Quote:
That is your origin comrade.
You don't want to know my origin))
I am Hitler's worst nightmare.
And apparently yours.
Quote:
As for finno ugric element much what is Western Russia today was populated by finno ugric tribes before slavic colonization. Do not be ashamed of your heritage.
Well if Russians are a bunch of slavisized Finnish-urgic mongols, than Ukrainians are a bunch of slavisized Iranic Sarmatian Khazars. You know that Kiev was a Khazarian City captured by Slavs right, just like Kazan was/is a Tatar city captured by Slavs. Also if you look at the names of Ukrainian rivers they are not of Slavic origin but rather Iranic, do you think that Dinipro is Ukrainian? It means river on the far side in Sarmatian and Dniester means river on the close side. Slavic Homeland are the forested swamps of southern Belarus.
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