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First off, I am not disagreeing with you, but let me add my comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
boxus..I think you erred on this one real real real bad. I'd think there must be something in the Russian psyche which drives them to oppression when they believe they are furiously in the right. We've seen it egregriously done in the 20th both in their own country among their own people and in Eastern Europe populations.
My original comment was sort of a "slight" at the post I was replying to; going on and on about Russia's human rights issues is a bit ridiculous, especially this criticism is western influenced heavily, and this same western influence hardly states a word about other countries with much worse rights records. Relative to the world, Russia ranks as one of the top for rights of people. Not that this makes Russia so great at it, but shows how bad much the world still is. But I issue is that sitting here in the US, all you hear is "Russia abuses human rights", yet silence from the US gov and media over countries like China and Saudi Arabia. Heck, the US gov was silent when Saudi sent troops into Bahrain to put down the protesters. Hypocrisy to this level is sort of my pet peeve (I know self interest is what it is all about, but I generally think the US does not act in self interest, but rather the interest of a few).
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
I think the historical actions of the Russians has subjected Central and Eastern Europe to not only a physical but more importantly a psychological devastation among those who lived during those bad times and their succeeding generations that still reverberates in the area to this day. Has it been helped? I'd say...no.
East Europe has had more peace than at any time in its history since the Soviets occupied the area during/after WW2 and installed Soviet backed governments. I know this is something people do not like to acknowledge, but fact is E. Europe and Europe in general has been at war with each other almost constantly for centuries; this ended after WW2. To state Russia (and will use USSR interchangeably) subjected Europe to devastation is a bit ridiculous considering how much war there was before, and the lack of it after. As much hype there is around the Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia and the Soviet invasion of Hungary, those actions still resulted in far less deaths than the typical European war that popped up every couple of years throughout the centuries.
I am not the type to ever justify "the ends justify the means", and not even in this case, but it really seems Europe has forgotten its constant war mentality up until after WW2, and to throw "E. Europe is devastated" conveniently forgets Europe's invasion against Russia and Europe's constant war among each other for centuries. But yet the relatively peaceful period, though under totalitarian rule, was devastating and had long lasting impact?
The devastation supposedly "reverberates to this day" because politicians like to blame everything on Russia because Russia makes an easy scapegoat to detract from their own failings and domestic problems. And lastly, numerous people of those countries were full participants in the communist system, so to throw the whole blame on Russia (and it was not even Russia, but the USSR) is ridiculous; how about these countries and people look at themselves first and see why so many of their own people supported the communist/Soviet system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
From the looks of it, it is an area of silent and vocal hatreds, envy and revenge mixed in with autocracy and corruption. The past I'm afraid hovers over the land like a wraith swallowing up everything. Russia I think did incalculable damage to its country, other countries and to its public relations. A writer I came acrosos wondered why the Latvians hate the Russians, the Poles, the Estonians, the Hungarians. Apparently, Russia seems to have a penchant for not making 'friends'. She just sucks up hatred. I think her behavior brings it on. She wouldn't know what 'rights' are if it hit her in the face.
Russia survived Tsardom, the Soviets, WW2, and I am sure will survive this just fine. Russia's public relations were never good no matter what they did, the last resort for anything always is "Putin is former KGB"; so i doubt Russia really does not care about its public relations since it tried and no one really cared before. heck, look at the obvious spin on the Georgian-Russian conflict, even though it was determined Georgia was at fault, the West (the OSCE report) still had to say something negative about Russia in that it stated Russia used "a disproportionate amount of force", as if a country is only suppose to match its force to be "fair" during a war.. So sure, after that, Russia probably understood that no matter what it did, it will never be right in the West's eyes, so might as well do what the heck you want to keep yourself secure as possible.
As far as rights, again, much better rights than most countries in the world. Russia's rights are so good, the US media cannot even state the truth around the Gay law that is there, and rather spins it and hypes it up because there is really not too many other areas to attack. While the US media put the spin on the band P* Riot getting arrested, it has all but ignored the actual circumstances of the charge, which would be public disorder here in the US, and does not report hardly at all (you have to find it) protesters here in the US that get arrested or confine protests to certain "free speech zones" or they will be arrested; these issues in the US certainly are not front page day after day, but goodness, P* Riot gets arrested for public disorder in a church and it is front page month after month. Numerous protesters get arrested in the US, not a word because the arrests were "justifiable", like "trespassing" or "assault on a police officer".
«I'm from the Donbass and here are many normal thinking people those hate separatists. And believe me, they are becoming every day more. Separatists...these morons aren't able to think: after they came banks and ATMs have closed, and people now can't receive pensions and salaries. The networks do not deliver food and goods for fear of looting. Trains, planes, buses, etc. are canceled. Another couple of weeks, may be a month and separatists will be lifted with the fork. They came to our village Volnovakha yesterday and nobody supported them. None came to meet them, and they were sent to d*** in the town council. These morons were disappointed and wrote on the pavement "You are cowards" and left. I needn't even to take my gun Saiga. Ukrainian flags fly over all the buildings proudly today.We won't surrender them Volnovakha!»
One comment from one person; if the Donbass had so many people loyal to the new Kiev gov, it would not take Kiev over two months now to even take a small town in the area, let alone large areas like Donbass.
And history shows people who do not support do not matter, they are apathetic, and rather useless to both sides. Even during the Russian civil war, numerous people did not take up sides, they just wanted to live their daily life without bother, sorry, but it does not work that way.
"these morons aren't able to think: after they came banks and ATMs have closed, and people now can't receive pensions and salaries. The networks do not deliver food and goods for fear of looting. Trains, planes, buses, etc. are canceled."
Like the Maiden protesters? Or did you think businesses were up and running around there? Or how about the anti-Soviet protesters? Perhaps they should have all went home instead of supporting the USSR to fall?
This is the second revolt in ten years for Ukraine, just how many is it going to take?
To be honest, Russia's human rights record isn't much better than China's. And that's already quite telling...
Not much better but still better, and most importantly the point is; China and Saudi Arabia are hardly ever the focus of any discussions regarding human rights. China for example has been granted waiver after waiver for every issue from Iranian oil to the Jackson-Vanik amendment.
boxus..I think you erred on this one real real real bad. I'd think there must be something in the Russian psyche which drives them to oppression when they believe they are furiously in the right. We've seen it egregriously done in the 20th both in their own country among their own people and in Eastern Europe populations.
I think the historical actions of the Russians has subjected Central and Eastern Europe to not only a physical but more importantly a psychological devastation among those who lived during those bad times and their succeeding generations that still reverberates in the area to this day. Has it been helped? I'd say...no.
Well historically US land belong to American Indians - where are they now? Most of them dead from genocide, small percentage live in "reservations" like wild animals.
Shall we assume that European colonists "has subjected North America to not only a physical but more importantly a psychological devastation "? I think yes.
Muslim countries unwilling to accept western (and especially US) life style are being subject to same type of genocide now through military and secret services aggressions of the West. Shall we assume that NATO "has subjected Muslims to not only a physical but more importantly a psychological devastation "? I think yes.
Not much better but still better, and most importantly the point is; China and Saudi Arabia are hardly ever the focus of any discussions regarding human rights. China for example has been granted waiver after waiver for every issue from Iranian oil to the Jackson-Vanik amendment.
When was the last time you opened up a newspaper, turned on TV or consumed online media? 1991? Sheesh, no wonder that you don't know about Russian human rights violations...
While I would not like to engage in the historical fallacy aspect as it relates to the thread topic, there can be a little mentioned of this subject as it relates to a historic sense, in which how did countries get formed in the first place? It is difficult to find a country that was not formed on the foundation of suppressing specific groups in the area. If this is the normal course for a country to form, and historically this has been the only way a country has been formed, then what is the theory about how a country is to be formed yet not allow this to happen?
Likewise, there are many countries in the world, if all groups were meant to be together, there would be much fewer countries, but fact is many groups cannot ever live together no matter how similar they are. At what point is this determined? Should it really take a war to determine this?
When was the last time you opened up a newspaper, turned on TV or consumed online media? 1991? Sheesh, no wonder that you don't know about Russian human rights violations...
I am on the news every single day, multiple sources, in addition to numerous books.
I never stated Russia does not have human rights issues, I stated relative to the world, human rights in Russia are among the best. That is not stating Russia is great, but just how bad the rest of the world is. I was very clear on this.
By the way, you did not address why the lack of criticism for Saudi Arabia, and why China receives waivers to import Iranian Oil and waivers to the Jackson-Vanik amendment.
I am on the news every single day, multiple sources, in addition to numerous books.
I never stated Russia does not have human rights issues, I stated relative to the world, human rights in Russia are among the best. That is not stating Russia is great, but just how bad the rest of the world is. I was very clear on this.
By the way, you did not address why the lack of criticism for Saudi Arabia, and why China receives waivers to import Iranian Oil and waivers to the Jackson-Vanik amendment.
My point: Newspapers are full of criticism towards Saudi Arabia (religious minorities, women, ...) and China (freedom of speech, torture, Tibet, ...). I don't know how to miss that.
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. So sure, after that, Russia probably understood that no matter what it did, it will never be right in the West's eyes, so might as well do what the heck you want to keep yourself secure as possible.
