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Old 03-02-2014, 12:31 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcyrus View Post
Russia is now double-minded... glorifying both it's Tsarist past and its Bolshevik past...
but those two pasts [philosophies] are completely contrary and antagonistic to each other.

The Bible says double-mindedness makes one unstable.

Russia's double-mindedness makes Russia weak and unstable.

If Russia does not have a clear vision of itself and its future.... it has no future.


.
And so no one else.
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:56 PM
 
26,787 posts, read 22,549,184 times
Reputation: 10038
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
And you actually believe that???

There are 300 million plus Americans and yes you will find some who solution to a problem like Iran or the Syrian dictator is to invade. But do you really believe that means that the vast majority of Americans wants Russia to cease to exist? More then 140 million people to die?
No, I don't think that the vast majority of Americans wants Russia to cease to exist. The vast majority of Americans go about their daily lives, not knowing much about Russia or at least they don't start their mornings with the nagging thought "how can I destroy Russia" while brushing their teeth. That job is left to paid politicians - to decide how to go about politics, what to do where and how.
Now what American POLITICIANS ( and bankers whom they definitely serve) think about it, is a different story. Death of 140 million people in Russia in a matter of a blitzkrieg? Of course not. But setting a country on a course where it will be weaken, disintegrated and finally will fall apart ceasing to be a world power?
Yes, that's more likely.

Quote:
In diplomatic terms the United States does want any one power to dominate Eurasia.
But Russia has been this very power through centuries you see.

Quote:
So it does not want anything like the Soviet Union trying to spread "Dear Leaders" to their unwilling neighbors or like the Russian Empire constantly annexing smaller countries in the name of security. What the United States does want is a stable and prosperous Russia that will maintain its borders and contribute to security and the world economy.
But "Soviet Union" is a successor of the Russian Empire. That's why I am pointing at the fact that the US politicians would love to see Russia as drastically reduced nation-state ( sort of like modern France or Germany,) not as the political power of global proportions - something like the United States are themselves.
And that's precisely what's not going to work, because Russian Empire has been founded as a global power, based on multi-national global ideas, not as a nation-state.


Quote:
Keep in mind that the USA and Russia have been allies in both World wars. Also, Russia was helpful to the United States in both the American Civil War and the American Revolution. This because of a simple fact - Russia and the United States, one traditionally a major land power and the other a naval power who sit on the opposite sides of the planet from each other - are actually natural allies. One day they may be again.
That's the internal affairs of the Christendom in general; don't forget that both countries still belong to it.

Quote:
So no the United States does not want to destroy Russia or murder the Russian people. I mean, please be rational.
I hope my given above explanations are rational enough?
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Old 03-02-2014, 12:59 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 18,818,113 times
Reputation: 25191
Quote:
Originally Posted by LINative View Post
And you actually believe that???

There are 300 million plus Americans and yes you will find some who solution to a problem like Iran or the Syrian dictator is to invade. But do you really believe that means that the vast majority of Americans wants Russia to cease to exist? More then 140 million people to die? And then its vast territory to be absorbed by whom? Stop and think about it.

In diplomatic terms the United States does want any one power to dominate Eurasia. So it does not want anything like the Soviet Union trying to spread "Dear Leaders" to their unwilling neighbors or like the Russian Empire constantly annexing smaller countries in the name of security.

What the United States does want is a stable and prosperous Russia that will maintain its borders and contribute to security and the world economy.

Keep in mind that the USA and Russia have been allies in both World wars. Also, Russia was helpful to the United States in both the American Civil War and the American Revolution. This because of a simple fact - Russia and the United States, one traditionally a major land power and the other a naval power who sit on the opposite sides of the planet from each other - are actually natural allies. One day they may be again.

So no the United States does not want to destroy Russia or murder the Russian people. I mean, please be rational.

Russian Empire
Russian Empire
Yes, they want Russia apart, this is even stated by former Sec of Defense Robert Gates in his book Duty, as he quotes Dick Cheney stating this when the USSR fell apart.

It is also the unspoken neocon fantasy, in which its actions speak much louder than words; why do you think the double standard exists for Russia, say over the likes of China and Saudi Arabia?

"What the United States does want is a stable and prosperous Russia that will maintain its borders and contribute to security and the world economy."

No, they want a Russia that is subservient to the West, the way Saudi Arabia and Africa is, the West wants Russian resources, but they do not want Russia to have the type of political and military power they possess. This is why when the US invades Haiti and Grenada, it is for peaceful purposes, but if Russia even defends its own peacekeeping troops in Georgia, it is an "aggressor", yet when Saudi Arabia sends troops into Bahrain to crush protesters, not a peep out of the US.

These are issues still unsettled after the Soviet break up, no different than the issues that would occur if the US broke up. The USSR broke up rather quickly, and along artificial lines created by Stalin, Lenin, and others, not hardly reflective of the reality of independent countries, but as one country. This should have been settled from the start, instead of hoping it would all go away.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Kennedy Heights, Ohio. USA
3,866 posts, read 3,144,484 times
Reputation: 2272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elcyrus View Post
The Bolsheviks not only starved to death millions of Ukrainians... they also killed millions of Russians.

The resurrection of Russia that began with the fall of the USSR is not complete.

Russian Orthodox Churches have been rebuilt and Russia's murdered Tsar and royal family have been canonized. But Russia's horrific Bolshevik past is still being glorified.

Russia is now double-minded. The Bible says double-mindedness causes instability.
Russia has no clear vision of her future. I would not be surprised if Russia loses this "war."


.
You can't just look at the Bolsheviks as the bad guys responsible for the horrors of the Russian Civil War. Tsar Nicholas believed he was divinely empowered by God to rule as he wish over the Russian empire no matter the consequences . Tsar Nicholas decision to enter Russia into World War One was the thing that kick-started the calamity with the end-result of millions of deaths and a failed state. The tsarists system collapsed due to
  1. Financial collapse due to World War One.
  2. Severe food shortages because farmers were getting paid in increasingly worthless money.
  3. Mass mutiny of the army because of colossal wasting of lives in a war not seen as serving their interests.
  4. Rural population lived just one step above slaves as serfs.
  5. Terrible living and working conditions on top of severe food shortages in the urban areas.
  6. When the Bolsheviks gain power and withdraw from WWI the western allies send troops and monetarily support the Czech Legion and other White forces as to return the old order to power and resume Russia's participation in WWI.
  7. A brutal civil breaks out in which neither side gives quarter to captured prisoners or persons suspected of sympathizing with the opposition.
Russia's economy was devastated by these wars. At 10 million deaths from all causes including disease and starvation. At the end of WWI and the Russian Civil War Russia's industrial capacity output is reduced to 15% of pre war levels and agricultural levels is reduced to 33% of pre war level. WWI and the Western powers intervention in the Russian Civil War combined with recommended advice from Western economic advisers after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the early 1990's instead of improving Russia's economic condition actually made it worse left a bad taste in the minds of Russians about Western intentions when it comes the affairs of Russia and its neighbors such as Ukraine.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:27 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
Reputation: 10141
Quote:
Originally Posted by erasure View Post
No, I don't think that the vast majority of Americans wants Russia to cease to exist. The vast majority of Americans go about their daily lives, not knowing much about Russia or at least they don't start their mornings with the nagging thought "how can I destroy Russia" while brushing their teeth. That job is left to paid politicians - to decide how to go about politics, what to do where and how.
Now what American POLITICIANS ( and bankers whom they definitely serve) think about it, is a different story. Death of 140 million people in Russia in a matter of a blitzkrieg? Of course not. But setting a country on a course where it will be weaken, disintegrated and finally will fall apart ceasing to be a world power?
Yes, that's more likely.

But Russia has been this very power through centuries you see.

But "Soviet Union" is a successor of the Russian Empire. That's why I am pointing at the fact that the US politicians would love to see Russia as drastically reduced nation-state ( sort of like modern France or Germany,) not as the political power of global proportions - something like the United States are themselves.
And that's precisely what's not going to work, because Russian Empire has been founded as a global power, based on multi-national global ideas, not as a nation-state.


That's the internal affairs of the Christendom in general; don't forget that both countries still belong to it.

I hope my given above explanations are rational enough?
Nope, sorry Erasure rather then being rational it sounds more like rationalizing excuses. From the really tired old communist era attack "its the bankers" or simply by constantly trying to switch the subject to the United States on a thread about the Ukraine and Russia.

The thing is if the Americans was really trying to destroy Russia, they would act more like.... well more like the old Russia! If that ever happens then you will know you have a problem. Watch for signs like the United States, China, Korea and Japan hatching secret plans to divide Siberia!

I have a suggestion. Instead of blaming the USA, the Germans, Poland, the western news media, bankers, capitalists, space aliens from Mars, whatever - try to explain why the Ukrainians and almost every other east European nation wants to associate themselves more with the West instead of Russia.

In other words, instead of just blaming others, part of the problem is Russia itself.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:30 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
Reputation: 10141
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxus View Post
Yes, they want Russia apart, this is even stated by former Sec of Defense Robert Gates in his book Duty, as he quotes Dick Cheney stating this when the USSR fell apart.

It is also the unspoken neocon fantasy, in which its actions speak much louder than words; why do you think the double standard exists for Russia, say over the likes of China and Saudi Arabia?

"What the United States does want is a stable and prosperous Russia that will maintain its borders and contribute to security and the world economy."

No, they want a Russia that is subservient to the West, the way Saudi Arabia and Africa is, the West wants Russian resources, but they do not want Russia to have the type of political and military power they possess. This is why when the US invades Haiti and Grenada, it is for peaceful purposes, but if Russia even defends its own peacekeeping troops in Georgia, it is an "aggressor", yet when Saudi Arabia sends troops into Bahrain to crush protesters, not a peep out of the US.

These are issues still unsettled after the Soviet break up, no different than the issues that would occur if the US broke up. The USSR broke up rather quickly, and along artificial lines created by Stalin, Lenin, and others, not hardly reflective of the reality of independent countries, but as one country. This should have been settled from the start, instead of hoping it would all go away.
I do not agree with you. It would be foolish for the USA to try to break up Russia.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:34 PM
 
Location: On the Great South Bay
9,169 posts, read 13,249,970 times
Reputation: 10141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coseau View Post
You can't just look at the Bolsheviks as the bad guys responsible for the horrors of the Russian Civil War. Tsar Nicholas believed he was divinely empowered by God to rule as he wish over the Russian empire no matter the consequences . Tsar Nicholas decision to enter Russia into World War One was the thing that kick-started the calamity with the end-result of millions of deaths and a failed state. The tsarists system collapsed due to
  1. Financial collapse due to World War One.
  2. Severe food shortages because farmers were getting paid in increasingly worthless money.
  3. Mass mutiny of the army because of colossal wasting of lives in a war not seen as serving their interests.
  4. Rural population lived just one step above slaves as serfs.
  5. Terrible living and working conditions on top of severe food shortages in the urban areas.
  6. When the Bolsheviks gain power and withdraw from WWI the western allies send troops and monetarily support the Czech Legion and other White forces as to return the old order to power and resume Russia's participation in WWI.
  7. A brutal civil breaks out in which neither side gives quarter to captured prisoners or persons suspected of sympathizing with the opposition.
Russia's economy was devastated by these wars. At 10 million deaths from all causes including disease and starvation. At the end of WWI and the Russian Civil War Russia's industrial capacity output is reduced to 15% of pre war levels and agricultural levels is reduced to 33% of pre war level. WWI and the Western powers intervention in the Russian Civil War combined with recommended advice from Western economic advisers after the dissolution of the Soviet Union in the early 1990's instead of improving Russia's economic condition actually made it worse left a bad taste in the minds of Russians about Western intentions when it comes the affairs of Russia and its neighbors such as Ukraine.
Those economic advisors were a disaster. And the United States and other western countries should have tried to help the Russia, Ukraine and the other post Soviet republics more. And Japan and Russia still have not solved their territorial disputes so they have less diplomatic options in Asia then say the USA and China.
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Old 03-02-2014, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Kharkiv
102 posts, read 106,181 times
Reputation: 71
In Crimea there is no war now. But it can be there if Russian leave.
At East after February 22 militants regularly came to seize power. Now after Russia threatened to send troops, we can see we have our normal town. Still, we expect provocation from Kiev.
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,776 posts, read 1,841,955 times
Reputation: 857
Quote:
Originally Posted by viribusunitis View Post
A TV network run by the Russian government?
So what? What's wrong with it?
RT.com news don't lie and do NOT manipulate facts as it do a many western press.
But if don't want to get the truth and real pictures of what's going on in the world then don't bother...
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Old 03-02-2014, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Some Airport Transit Zone
2,776 posts, read 1,841,955 times
Reputation: 857
Viral video produced by company linked to ‘regime change’ NGO

» Exposed: Ukrainian ‘Protesters’ Backed by Kony 2012-Style Scam Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
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