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Another thing is that if you guys want to attack us, then we get mad at you.
Don't worry, we will not attack you, we will just liberate you (like US). It's a joke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by travric
I must say that's very ironic. But it was those who invaded your country that gave the Ukrainians bad choices. The Nazis attacked and were so close in annhilating your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. They were ruthless in putting to death their relatives and friends. They desecrated every thing Russia loved. All that put some Ukrainians to make some difficult decisions as they found themselves in a crushing pincer movement betaween two implacable foes which left their country apparently as fodder on the side. As they say one man's traitor is another's freedom fighter.
If you deal with the devil (Hitler) it's no important what are you fighting for - for the freedom, the liberation, whatever - you deal with the devil.
Lecture all you want. For the ex-Soviets the words "fascist, junta, provocateur, Nato-puppet" are all the fuel they need. Never mind that Putinist Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan are some of the most pure fascist nations in the world today.
And if you ask me the piper will have to be paid in Russia itself one day soon. Taking a look at 'dissent' in the country apparently has some noting that 'oprichnina' has made itself felt in the wind blowing around in the country. It wafts back from those days of Ivan where anybody could be arrested at any time anywhere if they go against the 'line'. Some have a term for this arrangement now...'Staliban'...autocratic rule melded with ultraconservative orthodoxy. I have to say Mr. Putin is a very sophisticated politician since his approval ratings are pretty high. Do we take from this that the average Russian likes the boot in the face or are they simply being taking advantage of by a wily autocrat?
With Russia throwing the term fascist all over the place to everybody other than themselves, it is amazing to see the pot calling the kettle black as we have Russia driving repression in its culture. All to serve and hold up the strength of the state in the face of perceived insults.
Another thing is that if you guys want to attack us, then we get mad at you.
Why? Russia does not want to join even South East Ukraine, where the indigenous population speaks Russian. Why Russia will attack the Baltic countries? It is crazy. Thanks to Peter the Great, Russia has access to the Baltic Sea. Today it is necessary to develop trade relations between our countries.
And if you ask me the piper will have to be paid in Russia itself one day soon. Taking a look at 'dissent' in the country apparently has some noting that 'oprichnina' has made itself felt in the wind blowing around in the country. It wafts back from those days of Ivan where anybody could be arrested at any time anywhere if they go against the 'line'. Some have a term for this arrangement now...'Staliban'...autocratic rule melded with ultraconservative orthodoxy. I have to say Mr. Putin is a very sophisticated politician since his approval ratings are pretty high. Do we take from this that the average Russian likes the boot in the face or are they simply being taking advantage of by a wily autocrat?
With Russia throwing the term fascist all over the place to everybody other than themselves, it is amazing to see the pot calling the kettle black as we have Russia driving repression in its culture. All to serve and hold up the strength of the state in the face of perceived insults.
Putin's rating is very high but it has nothing to "autocracy" in Russia. The time makes the leader. This time made Putin as a leader of Russia. And of course there are people who don't join Putin's line - musician Makarevich, dissident Novodvorskaya, but their voices are like a drib in the ocean. People trust Putin, but they will overthrow Putin like Nikolay II in 1917 if he betray them.
I must say that's very ironic. But it was those who invaded your country that gave the Ukrainians bad choices. The Nazis attacked and were so close in annhilating your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. They were ruthless in putting to death their relatives and friends. They desecrated every thing Russia loved. All that put some Ukrainians to make some difficult decisions as they found themselves in a crushing pincer movement betaween two implacable foes which left their country apparently as fodder on the side. As they say one man's traitor is another's freedom fighter.
This is true only for part of the Western Ukraine. Fighting Eastern Ukraine with Russia to similar the struggle bees against honey. Unfortunately young people in Eastern Ukraine do not understand this. Propaganda in Ukraine works not worse than in Russia.
Last edited by Maksim_Frolov; 04-30-2014 at 02:41 AM..
I must say that's very ironic. But it was those who invaded your country that gave the Ukrainians bad choices. The Nazis attacked and were so close in annhilating your grandfathers and great-grandfathers. They were ruthless in putting to death their relatives and friends. They desecrated every thing Russia loved. All that put some Ukrainians to make some difficult decisions as they found themselves in a crushing pincer movement betaween two implacable foes which left their country apparently as fodder on the side. As they say one man's traitor is another's freedom fighter.
1. "Choice" is a key word here. While Germans didn't have much choice left - to join Hitler or to die in concentration camps, Western Ukrainians did have choice to join Hitler or not to join him. So did Vlasov and his army. The other country ( other than Germany) where the books are Erich Maria Remark were read and appreciated was Russia. So Maxim is Frolov is right - Russians do forgive Germans, but they do not forgive their own traitors and they do not forgive those who joined Hitler volunteerely.
2. You are making a mistake, when you are saying that "Ukraine was made a fodder' by "two implacable foes."
Ukraine WAS PART OF RUSSIA for the last 300 years by that time, except for the Western provinces that used to belong to Romania/Hungary/Poland and taken by Stalin only in 1939.
So Ukraine shared the same fate as Russia; it was not a FODDER for Russia during the WWII as you are trying to present a case; the only exception were Ukrainian western provinces, which in current time for the most part were behind the Maidan events, and that breed "Pravy Sector," and "banderovets. "
You need to hear what Eastern Ukrainians are saying about Western Ukrainians on-line;
"Who are you, people that were slaves of foreign masters for centuries, who were injected into our country by Stalin, you, Galitchians, who speak in strange mix of languages, who are you to claim now that you represent "the true Ukrainians" and that your interests are the interests of the entire Ukraine?! "
And if you ask me the piper will have to be paid in Russia itself one day soon. Taking a look at 'dissent' in the country apparently has some noting that 'oprichnina' has made itself felt in the wind blowing around in the country. It wafts back from those days of Ivan where anybody could be arrested at any time anywhere if they go against the 'line'. Some have a term for this arrangement now...'Staliban'...autocratic rule melded with ultraconservative orthodoxy. I have to say Mr. Putin is a very sophisticated politician since his approval ratings are pretty high. Do we take from this that the average Russian likes the boot in the face or are they simply being taking advantage of by a wily autocrat?
The average Russian understands time and time again that his/her country is coveted by the West for its natural resources and time proves over and over again that Russia has nothing good to expect from the West ( I have to repeat yet again that the nineties were the latest proof of it.)
Therefore the circumstances dictate to Russians that they are better off with authoritarian leader, who doesn't allow the meddling of the West in internal Russian affairs. That's the main reason why Russians don't have a luxury of plural opinions and dissent in the country. Not that it's not there, but they can't allow that to happen, when they operate in survival mode time and time again.
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