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WTF? Nobody has asked Ukraine to choose between east and west. Except for Putin and Yanukovych, who didn't have any intention of even asking.
Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia are Central European countries who have been in the Western Sphere of influence for most of their history. They were in the Russian sphere only for 60 years.
WTF? Nobody has asked Ukraine to choose between east and west. Except for Putin and Yanukovych, who didn't have any intention of even asking.
Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia are Central European countries who have been in the Western Sphere of influence for most of their history. They were in the Russian sphere only for 60 years.
To me, those countries are neither West, nor "Russian", they are simply Eastern Europe.
Most of those maps confirm this: Eastern Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The thing is, if Slavic countries like Poland are Western, then Russia is also Western as it has historically been just as important to Western culture (think of literature, music, science, etc.), which makes that whole distinction East vs. West obsolete.
I understand that you feel bitter because of what happened to Russia, but what is wrong with Ukrainians having choices and some basic human rights?
In this case I was responding to RemeberMee, who has an interesting ( meaning he is not the only one who professes this particular ) belief.
And this belief is, that there was nothing particularly wrong with Western powers having colonies/all kind of advances and global interests up until today, where Russia's acquiring colonies/pursuing her own geopolitical colonies is something patently wrong. And the only reason you can explain such belief ( the way I see it) is that Russia somehow represents the eternal evil, where Western powers represent the eternal good in the world, and therefore whatever they use for their own advantage serves the ultimate "good," wherever when Russia pursues her interests, that serves "evil." So following this kind of logic he considers Ukraine to be an ultimate victim of the "evil," and basically demands "justice" for Ukrainians, while denying any justice to Russians. Hence that was my response to him.
But to you ( providing you behave yourself and remain polite ) I would give a somewhat different answer. Because I consider Russians and Ukrainians basically as two slightly different versions of the same thing, I have hard time to believe that when one "version" ( actually both of them, initially) were treated poorly by the West ( I am talking about post-Soviet times of course,) then when the West comes later to lament about the "sad fate" of one of those twins, while grumbling at the other, I see the ulterior motive here, not just desire to make one of the "twins" happy as in "having choices and some basic human rights." It's not the well-being of that twin that the West has in mind, but rather a way to attack the other twin. And when this serves as the true motive behind such move, I don't believe in the positive outcome for Ukrainians.
WTF? Nobody has asked Ukraine to choose between east and west. Except for Putin and Yanukovych, who didn't have any intention of even asking.
Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary and Slovenia are Central European countries who have been in the Western Sphere of influence for most of their history. They were in the Russian sphere only for 60 years.
You are wrong about Poland. Poland ( as much as Baltic countries actually,) were indeed in sphere of Russian influence well before "the last 60 years." In fact Poland has been partitioned with the help of Russia not on a single occasion and for a reason. (Just have a look at history of Russian Empire.)
Now Czechs/Hungarians and what's not were under German dominance and "German sphere of influence."
Yes, that is the way I feel. After all, there are no clear definitions on what the West is. There is no reference map or anything. And to me personally Poland is not part of the West, no. Or, if I include it, Russia is also part of the West, which however most people will not agree on.
And again, saying country x is not part of the West is in no way negative. I am not one of those people thinking that the West is the standard or goal.
Yes, you better know the truth. For Germanic people Slavs are "Eastern Europeans," really, (and rightfully so. )
No matter what you'd like to believe ( or what some other Slavs residing now in E.U. would like to convince themselves and the world in,) but that's the unspoken truth.
Now what Neuling is saying about Russian culture ( music/literature and the rest) is the whole different issue, although as well a very important one.
In this case I was responding to RemeberMee, who has an interesting ( meaning he is not the only one who professes this particular ) belief.
And this belief is, that there was nothing particularly wrong with Western powers having colonies/all kind of advances and global interests up until today, where Russia's acquiring colonies/pursuing her own geopolitical colonies is something patently wrong. And the only reason you can explain such belief ( the way I see it) is that Russia somehow represents the eternal evil, where Western powers represent the eternal good in the world, and therefore whatever they use for their own advantage serves the ultimate "good," wherever when Russia pursues her interests, that serves "evil." So following this kind of logic he considers Ukraine to be an ultimate victim of the "evil," and basically demands "justice" for Ukrainians, while denying any justice to Russians. Hence that was my response to him.
But to you ( providing you behave yourself and remain polite ) I would give a somewhat different answer. Because I consider Russians and Ukrainians basically as two slightly different versions of the same thing, I have hard time to believe that when one "version" ( actually both of them, initially) were treated poorly by the West ( I am talking about post-Soviet times of course,) then when the West comes later to lament about the "sad fate" of one of those twins, while grumbling at the other, I see the ulterior motive here, not just desire to make one of the "twins" happy as in "having choices and some basic human rights." It's not the well-being of that twin that the West has in mind, but rather a way to attack the other twin. And when this serves as the true motive behind such move, I don't believe in the positive outcome for Ukrainians.
Thank you for the clarification. This is approximately what I have gathered from your previous post.
To be fair, though, it seems to me (am I'm sure to many other posters, as well) that you, on the other hand, see the West in general and the US in particular as the eternal evil, even if you claim that you try to see things from both sides. Am I (somewhat) right saying this?
As for my behaviour, you should change your attitude, as well. Drop this condescending tone that is very often present in your posts/responses. It doesn't add to the discussion, either. It's not like you have the monopoly on truth and understanding.
Yes, you better know the truth. For Germanic people Slavs are "Eastern Europeans," really, (and rightfully so. )
And even this is so, and Slavs are "Eastern Europeans", which they are, so what? This fact doesn't seem to prevent them to be members of the EU. Why should they maintain status quo forever, "know their place", so to say?
Who said, they have no place in the larger Europe? Who said, there should be an invisible line between West and East?
In general, I think, as important as history may be, things are changing. They never stay the same. I absolutely see no reason to cling to the past and to project historical events, as important as they may be, to the present and the future. Otherwise, you'll never be able to change anything.
Things may come in just a couple of years that you would never even dream about.
That's why Gorbachev's suggestion of a pan-Eurasian union or whatever he called it was a good idea. The transitions across Europe are gradual the more you zoom in. To someone from Portugal, Poland and Russia are basically the same, equally different and far in every way. But when you go from East Germany via Poland to Russia, the differences become rather gradual (except for the languages of course, especially the rift at the Polish-German border).
Unfortunately, the West did not take that chance because it has always been imperialist and anti-Russian. When the SU collapsed there were many people openly saying the West was looking for a new enemy, i.e. obstacle to ruling the whole world.
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) I would give a somewhat different answer. Because I consider Russians and Ukrainians basically as two slightly different versions of the same thing, I have hard time to believe that when one "version" ( actually both of them, initially) were treated poorly by the West ( I am talking about post-Soviet times of course,) then when the West comes later to lament about the "sad fate" of one of those twins, while grumbling at the other, I see the ulterior motive here, not just desire to make one of the "twins" happy as in "having choices and some basic human rights." It's not the well-being of that twin that the West has in mind, but rather a way to attack the other twin. And when this serves as the true motive behind such move, I don't believe in the positive outcome for Ukrainians.
