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1. "Choice" is a key word here. While Germans didn't have much choice left - to join Hitler or to die in concentration camps, Western Ukrainians did have choice to join Hitler or not to join him. So did Vlasov and his army. The other country ( other than Germany) where the books are Erich Maria Remark were read and appreciated was Russia. So Maxim is Frolov is right - Russians do forgive Germans, but they do not forgive their own traitors and they do not forgive those who joined Hitler volunteerely.
2. You are making a mistake, when you are saying that "Ukraine was made a fodder' by "two implacable foes."
Ukraine WAS PART OF RUSSIA for the last 300 years by that time, except for the Western provinces that used to belong to Romania/Hungary/Poland and taken by Stalin only in 1939.
So Ukraine shared the same fate as Russia; it was not a FODDER for Russia during the WWII as you are trying to present a case; the only exception were Ukrainian western provinces, which in current time for the most part were behind the Maidan events, and that breed "Pravy Sector," and "banderovets. "
You need to hear what Eastern Ukrainians are saying about Western Ukrainians on-line;
"Who are you, people that were slaves of foreign masters for centuries, who were injected into our country by Stalin, you, Galitchians, who speak in strange mix of languages, who are you to claim now that you represent "the true Ukrainians" and that your interests are the interests of the entire Ukraine?! "
You badly know history of Ukraine, especially as to events of the beginning of 20 century and their precedence
You badly know history of Ukraine, especially as to events of the beginning of 20 century and their precedence
I am not interested in recent attempts to re-write Ukrainian history, that it would suit current political agenda.
Your view of Kievan Rus that you've tried to present here earlier was a good example of it.
No, John Kerry didn't blame Russia Today in lie, he just don't liked that RT don't named people of Donbass as terrorists and separatist, that's why he said "russian propaganda". And now we know: everything Kerry don't like is a russian propaganda.
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Originally Posted by LINative
Not to lecture you Atai but that's why you should say in the future planned a coup.
When you said plan a coup, it sounded like something that is still happening. And I am thinking - well that is pretty stupid to let the government know you are planning to coup them!
Thank you
But I'm sure, despite of Tyagnibok's plans are unmasked he and his friends still don't refused of these plans.
No, John Kerry didn't blame Russia Today in lie, he just don't liked that RT don't named people of Donbass as terrorists and separatist, that's why he said "russian propaganda". And now we know: everything Kerry don't like is a russian propaganda.
Im talking not about J Kerry, im about russian position in UN.
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Originally Posted by erasure
I am not interested in recent attempts to re-write Ukrainian history, that it would suit current political agenda.
Your view of Kievan Rus that you've tried to present here earlier was a good example of it.
Question not in "rewriting" history, simple your ignorance of a school course. I could fill this annoying blank in your education, including at the Kievan Rus, but I see it's already late.
Seamus Milne was previously a staff journalist on The Economist and studied economics and politics at Oxford and London universities.
Indeed the "red" line is east "Ukraine".
Anyway one of the local Ukrainian security officers in Luhansk, I believe it was, said it best the other day, something to the effect, "I am not going to risk getting my head bashed in for [the equivalent of] $200 a month" as he watched local people commandeer a police headquarters or national interior ministry building or something similar.
And, as the acting VP in Kiev alluded to, Odessa could be a flashpoint. If my understanding is correct, the site where Odessa now stands was a relatively small town governed by the Turks and conquered by the Russian Empire in 1792-1794 under Catherine the Great and developed into a cosmopolitan commercial port city, at times in its history enjoying special jurisdiction, and the primary language spoken in the city continues to be Russian.
Therefore the circumstances dictate to Russians that they are better off with authoritarian leader, who doesn't allow the meddling of the West in internal Russian affairs
And how we shall define 'internal Russian affairs'. You now this whiole cataclysm and to get down to it , f*** up, was due to the simple fact that Ukraine put out feelers to the West which wojld help them improve their economics and position in European markets. This of course presents change and Mr. Putin apparently will not abide by it. He takes it as an affront and therefore treats it as an 'internal Russian affair'. So like a bull in a china shop he starts the ruckus and is now seeking to make Ukraine weaker and weaker.
So let us look to May 25th in the Ukraine. What will we find? Will elections go as planned? Will Ukraine be able to get out a bit from the apparent Putin vise-grip toward its government? Will all of a sudden 'pro-Russians' mysteriously turn up in government buildings breaking windows, building ramparts, rampaging and taking over Kiev's buildings be the next step? And all in the name of 'internal Russian affairs?' So let's watch how that scenario goes. It will be amazing if things go as planned. Who knows what nefarious schemes are being concocted right now in the East?
Seamus Milne was previously a staff journalist on The Economist and studied economics and politics at Oxford and London universities.
Indeed the "red" line is east "Ukraine".
Yes, he is pretty good ( I've read his articles before too,) but I bet he is too "left" for many.
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Anyway one of the local Ukrainian security officers in Luhansk, I believe it was, said it best the other day, something to the effect, "I am not going to risk getting my head bashed in for [the equivalent of] $200 a month" as he watched local people commandeer a police headquarters or national interior ministry building or something similar.
And, as the acting VP in Kiev alluded to, Odessa could be a flashpoint. If my understanding is correct, the site where Odessa now stands was a relatively small town governed by the Turks and conquered by the Russian Empire in 1792-1794 under Catherine the Great and developed into a cosmopolitan commercial port city, at times in its history enjoying special jurisdiction, and the primary language spoken in the city continues to be Russian.
We'll see in the coming weeks and months.
Americans in this case ( as actually in many cases) don't understand the nature of conflict in Eastern/Southern Ukraine - they deny the importance of history and strength of national character, the distinctive features of the region, ascribing the uprising there simply to a "hand of Moscow."
While indeed Eastern Ukrainians are turning for help to Moscow, ( which is quite natural in their situation,) their resistance to new Kiev's government is genuine, and their grievances against it ( and the Western regions of the country) are quite real and legitimate.
Not only that, but speaking about Odessa ( as much as Sevastopol earlier) the West doesn't quite comprehend what it's demanding, while claiming for itself the essential part of Russian history and culture, including some cultural icons.
The increasing cynicism of the West in this respect, that becomes more and more all about "finances," while denying the importance of spiritual beginning of human nature, is getting a good match in even more ruthless, materialistic Russia that it begot in the nineties. That's the nature of today's clash, really, and since neither is going to budge, we are moving to the war yet again, precisely as it was predicted in the bible by the "end of times."
It's all quite logical.
And how we shall define 'internal Russian affairs'.
It's pretty simple - the intervention of the allies into Russian civil war after the revolution of the 1917 ( after that the West has been shut off completely from internal Russia affairs by the Bolsheviks for obvious reasons,) then, again, as soon as the Iron curtain went down, it was Western meddling in Russian internal affairs with American economists sitting in Kremlin and dictating the measures directly benefiting American interests and hurting the Russian ones. Later, when this didn't quite turn out the way it was intended - the continuous financial support for NGOs in Russia, for "building the democratic society" American way, ( never mind that they've helped to destroy that nascent democratic society in Russia earlier,) - so no need to look at current Ukrainian events. We are talking about strictly Russian internal affairs.
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You now this whiole cataclysm and to get down to it , f*** up, was due to the simple fact that Ukraine put out feelers to the West which wojld help them improve their economics and position in European markets.
This is not about "help."
This is all about setting the money machine in the way, that whatever dividends Ukrainian economy could bring, they'd go straight to Western corporations and Western coffers. So behind the flowery phrases of "help to improve economics" and "position in European markets" that's what it really is, with few on top in Ukraine benefiting from it , and the rest of Ukrainian population being sent to squanders.
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This of course presents change and Mr. Putin apparently will not abide by it. He takes it as an affront and therefore treats it as an 'internal Russian affair'. So like a bull in a china shop he starts the ruckus and is now seeking to make Ukraine weaker and weaker.
Putin has his own financial interests in Ukraine, but he wouldn't have been able to start any "ruckus," if at least part of Ukraine didn't have deep economic and historic/cultural ties with Russia. The ones that the West doesn't have and never had.
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So let us look to May 25th in the Ukraine. What will we find? Will elections go as planned? Will Ukraine be able to get out a bit from the apparent Putin vise-grip toward its government? Will all of a sudden 'pro-Russians' mysteriously turn up in government buildings breaking windows, building ramparts, rampaging and taking over Kiev's buildings be the next step?
I hear them talking about it on-line; the Eastern Ukrainians thinking about the need of going to Kiev and organizing their own anti-Maidan there, that Kiev would see that it doesn't represent them, but I don't think it will happen - they'll settle on self-determination for their region the way they see it fit.
My take on it is that they'll become a separate entity from the rest of Ukraine, without joining Russia.
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