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And when every one flees from Brooklyn, and Upper Manhattan, and increasingly even Queens, how low will those rents remain. ENY is now $1,300 for a I BR. Yes crime ridden ENY!
And nobody pays $1300 out of their pocket for a one bedroom in ER! Those rents are paid for by government programs!
Many people who live in nicer parts of Brooklyn, Queens, or Manhattan live with family AND/OR have roommates. Nobody has to leave who doesn't want to, though one may need to make adjustments to one's concept of living and homes.
If you aren't going to have roommates or live with family you'll need a subsidized apartment. This is the reality for New Yorkers who aren't well off and this is the majority of people.
Great article. The developers love it because they get to build a lot more market-rate units than they would without the subsidized units. So they are actually making more money with the subsidized units. So this is just more corporate welfare provided by an ultra-liberal mayor to rich fat cats.
With respect to the affordable units, they are occupied by "lottery winners," many of whom may have wealthy parents, or are just somewhat lazy people who are not working to their potential, and have no business being subsidized by anyone else. If you want to provide an affordable unit to the widow of the firefighter who was just killed, fine. But to some "artist" from Williamsburg? I don't think so.
Overall, the program is a complete joke, and will do nothing to alleviate the housing shortage in New York. The only thing that would really help is a deep cut in the levels of immigration, because immigrants pour into New York City every year. But can you imagine Mayor Bill De Boo Boo calling for a cut in immigration?
It must really be terrible that you couldn't get an unit in Manhattan. Otherwise, you wouldn't care!
And it's really up to the city and to the developer to decide who to subsidize. Since tourism is a huge part of the city's economy, and since many tourists go see plays, shows, independent films, to go art galleries, etc., the city is giving artists affordable housing out of ECONOMIC considerations as it is a part of the economy the city wants to grow.
NYC has a film and tv industry because of taxpayer credits giving to those who film productions here. NYC has a tech sector because of corporate subsidies that encouraged Google, Facebook,etc to have substantial operations here.
As for the widow of the firefighter, perhaps city officials don't consider her all that valuable...........
The developers love it because they get to build a lot more market-rate units than they would without the subsidized units. So they are actually making more money with the subsidized units.
I believe this analysis to be generally correct. I believe the previously presented claim that the market rent paying tenants were subsidizing the 'affordable' units to be a fallacy. It is by definition illogical that the market rent units are being rented above market rent for the purpose of subsidizing 'affordable' units. That said, when I move to NYC later this year, I will not rent from a developer that takes such grants/incentives and bases their rental pricing on need.
I believe this analysis to be generally correct. I believe the previously presented claim that the market rent paying tenants were subsidizing the 'affordable' units to be a fallacy. It is by definition illogical that the market rent units are being rented above market rent for the purpose of subsidizing 'affordable' units. That said, when I move to NYC later this year, I will not rent from a developer that takes such grants/incentives and bases their rental pricing on need.
Hold on to your chair dearie because it *is* true that in 80/20 or whatever types of "affordable" housing buildings market rate tenants must pay more. It is simply real estate math and you can to on anywhere on the Web and look it up.
All RS developments both commercial and residential are priced on a sales per square foot basis. What cannot be sold/rented at one rate the slack must come (hopefully) from elsewhere.
The supposed logic behind 80/20 or 70/30 is that in exchange for providing affordable or low income units the building is allowed greater density/height than otherwise allowed. This in theory should mitigate some of the loss suffered by a developer in on the lower end because more higher end units should be created. But it does not always work out that way.
The City now pushes for these affordable/low income units to be permanent. Thus that is 20 or 30 percent of a building that will never have market rate apartments, ever. So again that projected revenue must now come from somewhere else.
Overall, the program is a complete joke, and will do nothing to alleviate the housing shortage in New York. The only thing that would really help is a deep cut in the levels of immigration, because immigrants pour into New York City every year. But can you imagine Mayor Bill De Boo Boo calling for a cut in immigration?
Neither Giuliani nor Bloomberg called for a cut in immigration, either. Considering certain sectors of NYC's economy love immigrants (hospitality, construction, domestic services) no mayor of NYC is ever going to call for a cut in immigrants. It would also be political suicide in a city where half the people are born in another country and a huge percentage of the people are first or second generation Americans.''
Currently, the right is hysterical about immigrants because their hateful speech has put the majority of recent immigrants off on right wing politics, so as states get more immigrants, they turn from red to purple to blue. NYC's change in demographics ushered in the END of the Giuliani/Bloomberg era, giving the city its first Democratic mayor in 20 years.
Hold on to your chair dearie because it *is* true that in 80/20 or whatever types of "affordable" housing buildings market rate tenants must pay more. It is simply real estate math and you can to on anywhere on the Web and look it up.
Thank you for trying to explain real estate math to me, someone that has bought and sold more than 200 properties and currently has more than 20 rentals. I found it and your effort to be patronizing entertaining. The market rent tenants paying more than the 'affordable rent' tenants does not equate to subsidizing them. The real world situation is as I have stated, the market rent tenants are not subsidizing the 'affordable' rent tenants. It would be impossible to attract tenants to pay above market rate, by definition the rents they would be paying would be market rent. The market rate units are in no way rent controlled, the developer rents them for what the market will bear. The reason the developer agrees to the 80/20 arrangement is because the city in some way incentives the developer to do so. I don't know the details of all the incentives, but suspect they involve some combination of grants, density variations, property tax reductions and interest fee loans. The developer makes a calculated business decision that the value of the incentives will exceed the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units. One could say that the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units is indirectly passed on to the tax payer, or one could say that the developer eats the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units, but one can not say that the cost of the affordable rent units are paid by the other tenants in the building.
And there are people in NYCHA buildings in Manhattan South of East 96th Street paying $400 dollars a month for apartments. There are people in Manhattan South of 96th Street paying a few hundred dollars for rent stabilized or rent controlled apartments. There are 80/20s, LAMP, Mitchell Llamas, and other low income apartments in Manhattan. Half of the housing in Manhattan is NOT MARKET rate.............
People shouldn't comment on housing market they apparently know nothing about.
First off, it is my OPINION that those types of subsidies are horse ***** as well. I can't see why the mayor wants to add to it.
Now, I am well aware of NYCHA and rent control/rent stabilization, as well as who generally lives in these buildings. As I have mentioned, that effects the market rate of other housing.
However, they are not available to the majority of people. They take years to get into, often require lotteries or long waits, and NYCHA income limits are miniscule. For RS/RC units, those are good if you have an old auntie who is about to kick the bucket and you can get your name on the lease in the prescribed time frame. Those options are not "available" to the average person who moves here. RS shrinks every year as incomes and rents rise, and it is slowly being phased out. That said, there are still great numbers of people benefitting from it, who are grandfathered in.
This being a forum about moving and relocation, my responses reflect that. I doubt the average poster on this forum posting stuff like "can I make it in NYC, I am a college student from XYZ town in the midwest" or "where can I find organic vegetables in Queens" is a recipient of any form of social services or housing subsidies.
Therefore, my definition of "market rate" means what you will pay if you walk off the street into your local realtor and need an apartment in short order. And thus, market rates in Manhattan south of E 96 Street are nowhere near $400 a month unless you are one of the lucky ones I mentioned above.
You are playing semantics. The market rate on the 80% non-rent regulated apartments are affected by the 20% set aside for affordable. Through simple supply and demand, if there were 20% more apartments available at market rate, it would push the price of all of those units down.
Market rate rents are driven largely by a tight supply and high demand. Increase supply, and prices come down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert5
Thank you for trying to explain real estate math to me, someone that has bought and sold more than 200 properties and currently has more than 20 rentals. I found it and your effort to be patronizing entertaining. The market rent tenants paying more than the 'affordable rent' tenants does not equate to subsidizing them. The real world situation is as I have stated, the market rent tenants are not subsidizing the 'affordable' rent tenants. It would be impossible to attract tenants to pay above market rate, by definition the rents they would be paying would be market rent. The market rate units are in no way rent controlled, the developer rents them for what the market will bear. The reason the developer agrees to the 80/20 arrangement is because the city in some way incentives the developer to do so. I don't know the details of all the incentives, but suspect they involve some combination of grants, density variations, property tax reductions and interest fee loans. The developer makes a calculated business decision that the value of the incentives will exceed the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units. One could say that the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units is indirectly passed on to the tax payer, or one could say that the developer eats the 'cost' of the 'affordable rent' units, but one can not say that the cost of the affordable rent units are paid by the other tenants in the building.
I've felt for some time now that Manhattan (or maybe up to 125th) should have some special international trade zone type of designation. Make it super elite, super expensive, and a deregulated business center.
First off, it is my OPINION that those types of subsidies are horse ***** as well. I can't see why the mayor wants to add to it.
Now, I am well aware of NYCHA and rent control/rent stabilization, as well as who generally lives in these buildings. As I have mentioned, that effects the market rate of other housing.
However, they are not available to the majority of people. They take years to get into, often require lotteries or long waits, and NYCHA income limits are miniscule. For RS/RC units, those are good if you have an old auntie who is about to kick the bucket and you can get your name on the lease in the prescribed time frame. Those options are not "available" to the average person who moves here. RS shrinks every year as incomes and rents rise, and it is slowly being phased out. That said, there are still great numbers of people benefitting from it, who are grandfathered in.
This being a forum about moving and relocation, my responses reflect that. I doubt the average poster on this forum posting stuff like "can I make it in NYC, I am a college student from XYZ town in the midwest" or "where can I find organic vegetables in Queens" is a recipient of any form of social services or housing subsidies.
Therefore, my definition of "market rate" means what you will pay if you walk off the street into your local realtor and need an apartment in short order. And thus, market rates in Manhattan south of E 96 Street are nowhere near $400 a month unless you are one of the lucky ones I mentioned above.
You should read all the posts on NYCHA, and on the questions people on this forum ask about NYCHA, 80/20 lotteries, about landlord offer buyouts, and about landlord tenant cases. A huge percentage of people on this forum are Native and long term New Yorkers benefitting from New York's housing situation. The reality is in order to do well here it helps if you are already established here (then your real estate costs will be much lower) and you'll have the connections to be better able to get affordable housing or a high paying job. Whenever you move somewhere, unless you have a lot of money you are taking a BIG RISK these days.
Huge sections of the 5 boroughs are in no danger of losing rent stabilization, as apartments do not leave rent stabilization until rents go ABOVE 2500. That includes upper Manhattan as a whole.
New housing these days in order to get tax subsidies is at a minimum 80/20 or 70/30, and their are entire new buildings devoted to affordable housing. The city is doing this for its low income workers. Not just artists (they are a big part of the city's creative and tourism economies) but also for the civil servants (cops, teachers, firemen, social workers, building inspectors, etc) who run the city. This may offend the ridiculous dreams of some outsider who thinks he is going to come to NYC to rule the world, but whatever get over yourself, the city does not revolve around the dreams of transplants. Either get with the program or stay home!
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