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I haven't read this whole thread, so may be someone else has made the point that if folks weren't consumed with racial hysteria they'd see that admitting kids to the specialized high schools on the basis of one test on one days is simply bad educational policy. No other city in the US admits kids to their elite public schools in such a restrictive fashion, and I don't think that Boston Latin, Central High (in Philly), Northside Prep (Chicago), Lowell (San Francisco), or any others have been hurt by considering a kid's grades or socioeconomic status or whatever.
Even the experts in the article in the OP write: "...the American Psychological Association, the American Educational Research Association, and the National Council on Measurement in Education—have concluded that a high-stakes decision with a major impact on a student’s educational opportunities, such as admission to a specialized or gifted/talented program, should not turn on the results of a single test."
To me the sports analogy is perfect: Imagine you're recruiting for a basketball team and you say, "Well, we'll take anybody over 6'1'' who can hit a three-pointer. You can't do that and you won't make the team." That would be patently ridiculous now wouldn't it? How about passing skills? How about speed? How about ball-handling? What about teamwork? All sorts of things go into making a good player and coaches will look at ALL of them, not just one. And education is arguably much more complex than playing basketball.
You don't have to get rid of the test. Just broaden the admission requirements. That's the way the rest of the world works anyway.
So in conclusion, if we did what you're suggesting, we'd see a level playing field? And what if we still had the same acceptance level for Black and Brown students? Would that then be okay?
I personally don't think it makes a difference. If a kid is a good student, they'll have what it takes to be accepted (good grades, good test scores and the like). The big elephant in the room is that White and Asian students have the support system and parents have the attitude that their children will succeed and will do what it takes to ensure that they do, including hiring tutors and so on. Black and Brown students generally don't have such support in addition to the attitudes that can exist towards education. The fast way of life is often times and glorified and looked at as if it is the only way to make it, while those who go to school are the suckers.
And how does the specialized public schools being mostly Asian do anything for white people who cannot afford private school? I don't think they are interested in preserving this status quo.
White students are a minority in the NYC public school system. The majority of them can find a way to get into a white majority high school either a gifted & talented school, a selective specialized school (performing arts), or a hard to reach school (Staten island). If given a preference on integration white parents have shown to prefer asian american students compared to other groups (mainly due to safety concerns past elementary school).
For philosophical reason not every white parent is interested in having their child attend a S.T.E.M. type school (one of the main reasons specialize high school tend to be Asian majority).
But effectively, this is what happens in the end when it comes to basketball. Short players are by and large weeded out one way or another when the reality of competition catches up. Tall players learn to pass, dribble, fastbreak.
I expected such an income, but I just want to see what citylove has to say. I strongly believe that the attitude more than anything is the big problem, particularly in the Black community. There are resources out there to help Black and Brown children that want it. I always find it interesting when you see parents upset because their kids didn't do well, but what support do they give them aside from telling them to "do good"? They don't show them how to study, how to take notes... Nothing. There is no assistance on their end, and some of them couldn't help their kids themselves even if they wanted to, so it's rather comical when you hear that.
San Francisco is only about 5% black to start with, so no surprise that there are so few black students at Lowell. Moreover, there are actually few school age kids at all in San Francisco, as families have increasingly been priced out of the city. Boston is about 25% black and Boston Latin is 9% black, 12% Hispanic. That's still far more kids of color than NYC, and as the article points out, actually lower than minority enrollment at Bostons's two other exam high schools. Chicago uses socioeconomic status as ONE factor (there is also a test) in selecting students for its equivalent of the specialized high schools, and all have demonstrably more black students that their NYC counterparts. Even at Payton, one of the most selective of the bunch, black enrollment is 13%, and at Northside, it's at 8.5%, again both much higher than at comparable NYC schools.
You can get strong, racially diverse schools without "lowering standards" if you want to, even with the existing population of students. It's not hard if you think that ethnic diversity is a desirable aim to start with--which I get the impression some here don't.
And finally, the idea that so many black or Hispanic parents just don't care about their kids' education is just hogwash. MOST struggle to get their kids into good schools, make sure they do their homework, talk to the teachers, etc etc. Are there some who are bad parents? Of course. But the striking number of parents that I've met personally and who attend new school openings or apply to charters or seek out private or home-schooling gives lie to the myth that we're all ignorant single mothers with six kids running loose in the PJs. I wish people would get over their stereotypes, but alas...
Last edited by citylove101; 03-24-2017 at 12:34 PM..
San Francisco is only about 5% black to start with, so no surprise that there are so few black students at Lowell. Moreover, there are actually few school age kids at all in San Francisco, as families have increasingly been priced out of the city. Boston is about 25% black and Boston Latin is 9% black, 12% Hispanic. That's still far more kids of color than NYC, and as the article points out, actually lower than minority enrollment at Bostons's two other exam high schools. Chicago uses socioeconomic status as ONE factor (there is also a test) is selecting students for its equivalent of the specialized high schools, and all have demonstrably more black students that their NYC counterparts.
You can get strong, racially diverse schools without "lowering standards" if you want to, even with the existing population of students. It's not hard if you think that ethnic diversity is a desirable aim to start with--which I get the impression some here don't.
And finally, the idea that so many black or Hispanic parents just don't care about their kids' education is just hogwash. MOST struggle to get their kids into good schools, make sure they do their homework, talk to the teachers, etc etc. Are there some who are bad parents? Of course. But the striking number of parents that attend new school openings or apply to charters or seek out private or home-schooling gives lie to the myth that we're all single mothers with six kids running loose in the PJs. I wish people would get over their stereotypes, but alas...
Well then if the stereotypes just aren't true, do tell us what IS the problem? I for one am sick of these lame excuses as to why Black and Brown kids can't succeed. I personally don't even think that economic resources are that big of a difference. Furthermore, I don't buy this nonsense that the testing standards are too high. If a kid doesn't give a damn about their education, there is NOTHING that will change that, and there are some that just don't care. You really don't want to concede that some of it has to do with what kids see in their community huh? So if a kid sees guys hustling on the corner, you don't think they are going to think that that's the way to go? You're right, you do have parents that care, but you also have a lot of kids that don't care and are simply too gullible.
San Francisco is only about 5% black to start with, so no surprise that there are so few black students at Lowell. Moreover, there are actually few school age kids at all in San Francisco, as families have increasingly been priced out of the city. Boston is about 25% black and Boston Latin is 9% black, 12% Hispanic. That's still far more kids of color than NYC, and as the article points out, actually lower than minority enrollment at Bostons's two other exam high schools. Chicago uses socioeconomic status as ONE factor (there is also a test) is selecting students for its equivalent of the specialized high schools, and all have demonstrably more black students that their NYC counterparts.
First off, you were the one who offered Lowell and Boston Latin as examples. That it didn't work. 9% is not something NAACP and diversity boosters will be happy with.
And Chicago is 32% black, 5% Asian. NYC is 25% black, 11% Asian. That tells you something about the only way in real life to boost black representation in competitive schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by citylove101
You can get strong, racially diverse schools without "lowering standards" if you want to, even with the existing population of students. It's not hard if you think that ethnic diversity is a desirable aim to start with--which I get the impression some here don't.
And finally, the idea that so many black or Hispanic parents just don't care about their kids' education is just hogwash. MOST struggle to get their kids into good schools, make sure they do their homework, talk to the teachers, etc etc. Are there some who are bad parents? Of course. But the striking number of parents that attend new school openings or apply to charters or seek out private or home-schooling gives lie to the myth that we're all single mothers with six kids running loose in the PJs. I wish people would get over their stereotypes, but alas...
Well and good at the motherhood statement level, but you can offer only few examples of solutions that work in real life. One thing you need to consider is that the NYC SHSes are overwhelmingly SCIENCE-based (Stuy, BSHS, Brooklyn Tech). It takes years of development at the elementary level to build a strong aptitude in science. And science is a very objective, rigorous discipline. If these kids did not develop the right abilities in elementary school, what makes the NAACP think they will have the abilities in high school?
First off, you were the one who offered Lowell and Boston Latin as examples. That it didn't work. 9% is not something NAACP and diversity boosters will be happy with.
And Chicago is 32% black, 5% Asian. NYC is 25% black, 11% Asian. That tells you something about the only way in real life to boost black representation in competitive schools.
Well and good at the motherhood statement level, but you can offer only few examples of solutions that work in real life. One thing you need to consider is that the NYC SHSes are overwhelmingly SCIENCE-based (Stuy, BSHS, Brooklyn Tech). It takes years of development at the elementary level to build a strong aptitude in science. And science is a very objective, rigorous discipline. If these kids did not develop the right abilities in elementary school, what makes the NAACP think they will have the abilities in high school?
I have to agree with you. You either have it or you don't. I'm just sick of the blame not being placed where it should be, which is with the kids. I believe all kids have the capabilities to succeed, regardless what their background is, but they have to want it, and they also have to be taught that education is important. There are some parents that talk the good talk, but really don't believe in education. You also have a lot of kids that want instant gratification and care about their "image", hence they look up to the fast life.
I have to agree with you. You either have it or you don't.
Or they needed to have spent years preparing for it. They cannot show up at the doorstep of Bronx Science grossly unprepared, at which point it is impossible to make up for years of lost time. It's the preparation aspect that is getting overlooked in this whole discussion.
Well then if the stereotypes just aren't true, do tell us what IS the problem? I for one am sick of these lame excuses as to why Black and Brown kids can't succeed. I personally don't even think that economic resources are that big of a difference. Furthermore, I don't buy this nonsense that the testing standards are too high. If a kid doesn't give a damn about their education, there is NOTHING that will change that, and there are some that just don't care. You really don't want to concede that some of it has to do with what kids see in their community huh? So if a kid sees guys hustling on the corner, you don't think they are going to think that that's the way to go? You're right, you do have parents that care, but you also have a lot of kids that don't care and are simply too gullible.
The problem, as I clearly stated, is that using only ONE measure to see who can benefit from an elite education is narrow, wrong-headed and stupid. The numbers and admissions standards in other cities show that ethnic discrepancies narrow considerably when a fuller picture of a student is considered. And all those systems DO use a test.
The SHSAT gives very few false positives (there are very few kids who get into a school who aren't really smart), but plenty of false negatives (a lot of kids who don't make the cut could thrive if they got in). That's where additional admissions requirements would come into play. Some folks believe that this might--depending on what the new measurements were--somehow inject "subjectivity" into admissions. It very well might. But so be it. That's the way it works in college and in real life too. It's not all by the numbers.
And if all you see in black and Hispanic life is "...guys hustling on the corner... a kid that doesn't give a dman about education" I suggest you get out a bit more.
Check that. You need to get out a LOT more.
Last edited by citylove101; 03-24-2017 at 01:29 PM..
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