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The problem, as I clearly stated, is that using only ONE measure to see who can benefit from an elite education is narrow, wrong-headed and stupid. The numbers and admissions standards in other cities show that ethnic discrepancies narrow considerably when a fuller picture of a student is considered. And all those systems DO use a test.
The SHSAT gives very few false positives (there are very few kids who get into a school aren't really smart), but plenty of false negatives (a lot of kids who don't make the cut could thrive if they got in). That's where additional admissions requirements would come into play. Some folks believe that this might--depending on what the new measurements were--somehow inject "subjectivity" into admissions. It very well might. But so be it. That's the way it works in college and in life.
But what other measures could you possibly throw in to gauge an 8th grader's ability in math and science? Past grades in math and science? History of taking challenging courses? Participation in ES/MS science olympiads? Letters of recommendation from leading professionals in the field? If you included these measures, wouldn't they all at the end of the day lead to the same outcome or worse, make the process more to the advantage of wealthier kids?
The problem, as I clearly stated, is that using only ONE measure to see who can benefit from an elite education is narrow, wrong-headed and stupid. The numbers and admissions standards in other cities show that ethnic discrepancies narrow considerably when a fuller picture of a student is considered. And all those systems DO use a test.
The SHSAT gives very few false positives (there are very few kids who get into a school aren't really smart), but plenty of false negatives (a lot of kids who don't make the cut could thrive if they got in). That's where additional admissions requirements would come into play. Some folks believe that this might--depending on what the new measurements were--somehow inject "subjectivity" into admissions. It very well might. But so be it. That's the way it works in college and in life.
And if all you see in black and Hispanic life is "...guys hustling on the corner... a kid that doesn't give a dman about education" I suggest you get out a bit more.
Check that. You need to get out a LOT more.
That's not "all" I see. What I have a problem with is people that simply REFUSE to admit that it's a problem. You can't sit here and tell me with a straight face that THE problem is the standards used when plenty of Asian kids do well and come from dirt poor families. Asian kids are taught the value of education, and that's the BIG difference that you refuse to even acknowledge. Until people stop placing blame on others and place it where it belongs, nothing will change.
But what other measures could you possibly throw in to gauge an 8th grader's ability in math and science? Past grades in math and science? History of taking challenging courses? Participation in ES/MS science olympiads? Letters of recommendation from leading professionals in the field? If you included these measures, wouldn't they all at the end of the day lead to the same outcome or worse, make the process more to the advantage of wealthier kids?
Blacks boys generally care about B-ball, video games, football and the like. They don't give a damn about Math and Science.
That's not "all" I see. What I have a problem with is people that simply REFUSE to admit that it's a problem. You can't sit here and tell me with a straight face that THE problem is the standards used when plenty of Asian kids do well and come from dirt poor families. Asian kids are taught the value of education, and that's the BIG difference that you refuse to even acknowledge. Until people stop placing blame on others and place it where it belongs, nothing will change.
I acknowledged it.
I also acknowledged that when it comes to wealthy whites they make sure they use a multitude of other measures so this outcome doesn't happen. There have been people with perfect SAT scores who got rejected by all Ivy League schools. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? I honestly would have no problem getting rid of the specialized high schools altogether. It's not really the responsibility of other races in the city to pay for special education for Asians. Either have a student body more representative of the entire city or get rid of the specialized schools altogether. I probably prefer the latter as I'm not a fan of some public schools getting more resources than others.
I have to agree with you. You either have it or you don't. I'm just sick of the blame not being placed where it should be, which is with the kids. I believe all kids have the capabilities to succeed, regardless what their background is, but they have to want it, and they also have to be taught that education is important. There are some parents that talk the good talk, but really don't believe in education. You also have a lot of kids that want instant gratification and care about their "image", hence they look up to the fast life.
If you either have it or you don't, then there's no need for the specialized high schools and the city can get rid of them altogether. Those who have it should still find ways to rise, and if their parents want them in a special environment they need to pay for it.
They can afford to take the admissions test. It would cost a lot more than if they had to pay thousands of dollars on many years of youth sports, glamorous volunteer activities, music lessons, admissions counselors etc.
White people arent being admitted in great numbers and in fact mortality rates among white Americans are skyrocketing. So why support specialized public schools for Asians?
White people arent being admitted in great numbers and in fact mortality rates among white Americans are skyrocketing. So why support specialized public schools for Asians?
Get rid of those schools altogether.
The article that started this thread was about ways to change the admissions criteria to benefit students of color. Now that it has become clear that there is no way to change the outcome without creating an explicit quota for race, you want to to get rid of these schools altogether (ie, "we can't compete, let's ban the game")? Look at the different regular public schools outside of SHS that have accelerated math and science programs. In most part the programs are still comprised of majority Asians and Eastern Europeans. Same thing for AP calculus AB/BC, AP Physics, AP Chemistry. Should all these programs including AP be terminated because poor blacks, hispanics and whites do not avail of them?
If you either have it or you don't, then there's no need for the specialized high schools and the city can get rid of them altogether. Those who have it should still find ways to rise, and if their parents want them in a special environment they need to pay for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NyWriterdude
I acknowledged it.
I also acknowledged that when it comes to wealthy whites they make sure they use a multitude of other measures so this outcome doesn't happen. There have been people with perfect SAT scores who got rejected by all Ivy League schools. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this? I honestly would have no problem getting rid of the specialized high schools altogether. It's not really the responsibility of other races in the city to pay for special education for Asians. Either have a student body more representative of the entire city or get rid of the specialized schools altogether. I probably prefer the latter as I'm not a fan of some public schools getting more resources than others.
Why should we get rid of specialized schools just because most of the student population is Asian? That's absurd. In my field, we don't have many people of color, but it's still an important field that we can't afford to get rid of. The problem with our society is EVERYTHING has to be "representative" of our population, and what it means is EVERYTHING becomes predictable, staged and stale. Wanna have a TV commercial these days? We gotta have one White person, one Black or Latino and one Asian or there's a problem. I can think of a lot of circles in which the population isn't reflective of our society. When I go shopping, most of cashiers are Black or Latino. Guess we need to change that too huh? The insanity never ends.
But what other measures could you possibly throw in to gauge an 8th grader's ability in math and science? Past grades in math and science? History of taking challenging courses? Participation in ES/MS science olympiads? Letters of recommendation from leading professionals in the field? If you included these measures, wouldn't they all at the end of the day lead to the same outcome or worse, make the process more to the advantage of wealthier kids?
For one, start with grades and courses taken. It's perfectly clear at the college level that the best predictor of freshman success at any school is a combination of the test result (SAT or ACT for college) and grades/course selection. IMO the same is true for high schools. And please don't tell me all 8th graders in the city have the same curriculum at the same level of rigor. That is just not true and we all know it. The saying among school counselors is that tests measure your smarts, but grades measure your work ethic. Rely on only the test and you're only getting half the picture.
Yes, I would certainly look at outside outside academic honors/awards/competitions, whether science or humanities based. They can be signs of a dedication, hard work, and smarts, though I understand that it could help middle class kids more than poor ones. And remember that the specialized high schools, even Bronx Science and Stuyvesant, have regularly produced a fair number of talented non-science luminaries: Eric Holder and Thelonius Monk went to Stuyvesant, E.L. Doctorow and Richard Price to Bronx Science, Eric Adams and Leonard Riggio (founder Barnes & Noble) went to Tech. And those are just off the top of my head. TI'm sure that there are others. Those schools are far from just science guys and have been for a long time.
And while you cannot consider race in admissions to these schools, you can consider socioeconomic status, and should. Should a kid from a poor tough neighborhood and background be granted an edge in admissions if his/her test scores are, for example, 3% lower that what kids from better off parts of the city? I'd argue yes. City of Chicago has an interesting way of determining socioeconomic status by putting every neighborhood in the city into one of four "tiers" according to stuff like parents' education, home ownership, single parenthood, et, etc, they they use that as one of the inputs for admissions.
Teacher recs. Yep. Teachers know these kids the best, sometimes better than their own parents do. And these recs can be standardized to make them comparable across the city. And each school would track the recs over the years, so it could easily see if some teacher (or entire school) was wildly inaccurate in assessing a kid.
The devil is in the details. How would you weight all these factors? (And maybe others beside) That would make a big difference. Moving away from a single admissions test, one-size-fits-all admissions system would take years and have to be done carefully. (And will probably only be done under a judge's order I'd guess, even though IIRC only the original specialized high schools are under Hecht-Calandra.)
The devil is in the details. How would you weight all these factors? (And maybe others beside) That would make a big difference. Moving away from a single admissions test, one-size-fits-all admissions system would take years and have to be done carefully. (And will probably only be done under a judge's order I'd guess, even though IIRC only the original specialized high schools are under Hecht-Calandra.)
There already been studies showing that changing school admissions criteria to include grade, state exam, and attendance will negatively impact the amount of black students already admitted to specialized high school.
Quote:
The study found that admissions rules based on criteria other than the SHSAT – including state test scores, grades, and attendance – would moderately alter the demographic mix of the specialized schools without significantly lowering the academic achievement levels of incoming students. But the rules would not substantially improve the schools’ diversity, particularly for Black students, whose numbers would actually decrease under several of the proposed rules.
And while you cannot consider race in admissions to these schools, you can consider socioeconomic status, and should. Should a kid from a poor tough neighborhood and background be granted an edge in admissions if his/her test scores are, for example, 3% lower that what kids from better off parts of the city? I'd argue yes. City of Chicago has an interesting way of determining socioeconomic status by putting every neighborhood in the city into one of four "tiers" according to stuff like parents' education, home ownership, single parenthood, et, etc, they they use that as one of the inputs for admissions.
Asian Americans are the poorest minority group in NYC. Truth be told, you are looking for anyway to rationalize your racism and desire to put one race over another. You keep highlight how great Chicago specialized high schools are without mentioning there not many asians students in chicago public school system to begin with.
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