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Who suffers when the abortion doesn't take place and an unfit parent proceeds with giving birth? The child. And I am speaking from experience.
You say "No, it's about responsibility. Actions have consequences. If someone has sex without a condom they might get pregnant...". So, why should the child pay the price for the adult becoming an unfit parent vs having an abortion? Please tell me that.
Okay, I'll tell you. I realize you're coming from a place of compassion and the best of intentions. But your argument assumes that other people have the authority to choose for the child before it is ever born that the child would be better off dead than alive. That's a serious overreaching of power in a free society.
Okay, I'll tell you. I realize you're coming from a place of compassion and the best of intentions. But your argument assumes that other people have the authority to choose for the child before it is ever born that the child would be better off dead than alive. That's a serious overreaching of power in a free society.
You have me intrigued. I like to learn where others are coming from, especially those I don't agree with as I think it makes everyone better people for understanding the other side.
I'm not certain I'm following you, though.
I do think we have the authority to choose for the child before it is ever born (it is our responsibility to do what is best for that child - I think it takes an enormous amount of compassion to terminate a pregnancy in the best interest of a child - I can't even imagine what that must be like),
just as we have the authority to choose for the child after it is born (as adults, we make decisions for children every day),
just as we have the authority to choose for the child before it is even conceived (via making a decision to get pregnant - that is, when it is a decision and not an accident or rape).
Am I missing something?
But again, please don't miss my previous point about putting our energy into coming up with solutions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place (THAT is where I think the true discussion needs to be - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say), vs debating what should be done after the pregnancy has happened (i.e. pro-life vs pro-choice).
You have me intrigued. I like to learn where others are coming from, especially those I don't agree with as I think it makes everyone better people for understanding the other side.
I'm not certain I'm following you, though.
I do think we have the authority to choose for the child before it is ever born (it is our responsibility to do what is best for that child - I think it takes an enormous amount of compassion to terminate a pregnancy in the best interest of a child - I can't even imagine what that must be like),
just as we have the authority to choose for the child after it is born (as adults, we make decisions for children every day),
just as we have the authority to choose for the child before it is even conceived (via making a decision to get pregnant - that is, when it is a decision and not an accident or rape).
Am I missing something?
But again, please don't miss my previous point about putting our energy into coming up with solutions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place (THAT is where I think the true discussion needs to be - an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as they say), vs debating what should be done after the pregnancy has happened (i.e. pro-life vs pro-choice).
You wrote--- "Who suffers when the abortion doesn't take place and an unfit parent proceeds with giving birth? The child. And I am speaking from experience."
And yet, here you are, typing away, expressing your views, went to school, probably having a pretty good life. Need I name all the people who've lived thru abuse, poverty, neglect, and turned out successful, happy, giving. OTOH, we know many children born to parents who Wanted children and had no reason to think they'd be rotten parents, turn out--- rotten.
If a woman feels she has to give a reason for an abortion, the 'I killed the fetus to save the fetus' reason is about the most self-serving bunk she can come up with.
As for "coming up with solutions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place," the most effective way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is the proper, consistent use of bc.
You wrote--- "Who suffers when the abortion doesn't take place and an unfit parent proceeds with giving birth? The child. And I am speaking from experience."
And yet, here you are, typing away, expressing your views, went to school, probably having a pretty good life. Need I name all the people who've lived thru abuse, poverty, neglect, and turned out successful, happy, giving. OTOH, we know many children born to parents who Wanted children and had no reason to think they'd be rotten parents, turn out--- rotten.
If a woman feels she has to give a reason for an abortion, the 'I killed the fetus to save the fetus' reason is about the most self-serving bunk she can come up with.
As for "coming up with solutions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place," the most effective way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is the proper, consistent use of bc.
"OTOH, we know many children born to parents who Wanted children and had no reason to think they'd be rotten parents, turn out--- rotten."
>> Though I still stand by my position, you do have a good point there! lol
"the most effective way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is the proper, consistent use of bc."
>> Obviously, but clearly the proper, consistent use of birth control is not happening as often as it should be (just look at my hometown and other low income areas across the nation and world - not that it's only a low income problem, it just happens there more). That needs to change. We as a society need to understand why it's happening more there, then do our part to correct that.
And, not to simply hang our hat solely on "proper, consisten use of birth control", what do we do about pregnancies that were mistakes due to malfunctioning birth control / interactions with other medications (as was the case with my mother's birth of me)? (Encouraging abstinence is key. I'm pro-choice which means abortion is an option to me, though I personally wouldn't have an abortion unless I was raped or had a high-risk life-threatening pregnancy, yet I still practiced abstinence as my first sexual partner was my husband who I married in college. Not that I'm some overly religious person, it was simply a fear of being a teen mom that led me to that decision. I fully accept that abstinence is not for everyone, though, and I do not practice it now, even though I'm divorced and not remarried yet.)
Or about pregnancies due to rape? (We need to be doing what we can to end this crime.)
Those are things that need to be addressed by society as a whole.
We may never agree, but we can agree to disagree and work together towards ending unwanted pregnancies so abortion doesn't even need to be a consideration. I sure hope most, if not all, of the pro-life'ers on this thread are also doing their due diligence to end the unwanted pregnancies that ultimately end up as abortions by volunteering their time to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place (Believe me, that's not a dig, just a gentle suggestion ) After all, to get back on PP, that is what PP does: sex education, birth control dispensing, pre-abortion counseling (yes, many girls have been successfully talked out of it! ).
and this is where you are caught STREtCHING the truth
Many States have laws, that protect hte pregnant mom in the THIRD trimester (meaning the time when a baby is viable if born early). And any crime (whether assault / battery, or murder) can carry the weight of 2 (or 3 or more) counts because the higher potential for that baby/babies to survive outside the womb.
There are no laws in all 50 states that will charge someone with "murder" if the accident kills the mom before the third trimester (because, even mother natural will cause self-abortions at this point).
kind of hard to stretch the truth. either the baby is a human being from the time of conception or a human being at birth. you cant have it both ways.
I remember a dirtbag in california being charged with 2 counts of murder because the mother was pregnant.
"We may never agree, but we can agree to disagree and work together towards ending unwanted pregnancies. I sure hope most, if not all, of the pro-life'ers on this thread are also doing their due diligence to end the unwanted pregnancies that ultimately end up as abortions by volunteering their time to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place. (Believe me, that's not a dig, just a gentle suggestion "
There are fundamental differences in basic beliefs and values of many people who are pro-life vs. pro-choice. These are not things that a thoughtful discussion, or name-calling and threats, will change. And that is ok. People have the right to believe what they want to believe.
Haven't we learned by now that people grow up in vastly different environments and live through experiences that shape who they are? That things are rarely black and white, and they are almost always a shade of grey? And although it would be nice if everyone could see through their neighbors eyes, we instead tend to only change through experiences that affect us directly.
I agree that what we still need to do is find common ground. Inconsistency in policies is what makes many of us confused and frustrated. Especially if we actually do share some of the same goals.
For example, if you want to prevent abortions, education and birth control access must be improved. This includes things like classes in the schools and Planned Parenthood, among others. Preaching only abstinence has clearly failed. And if unwanted pregnancies occur, there must be system in place to assist these children so they have a chance.... and to support women so that they do not feel alone or helpless.
If you believe in pro-life because you believe that life is sacred and you should not murder, then you should be consistent and be against the death penalty.
Why can't we find more common road?
Last edited by sfcambridge; 02-04-2012 at 10:57 AM..
"We may never agree, but we can agree to disagree and work together towards ending unwanted pregnancies. I sure hope most, if not all, of the pro-life'ers on this thread are also doing their due diligence to end the unwanted pregnancies that ultimately end up as abortions by volunteering their time to preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place. (Believe me, that's not a dig, just a gentle suggestion "
There are fundamental differences in basic beliefs and values of many people who are pro-life vs. pro-choice. These are not things that a thoughtful discussion, or name-calling and threats, will change. And that is ok. People have to right to believe what they want to believe.
Haven't we learned by now that people grow up in vastly different environments and live through experiences that shape who they are? That things are rarely black and white, and they are almost always a shade of grey? And although it would be nice if everyone could see through their neighbors eyes, we instead tend to only change through experiences that affect us directly.
I agree that what we still need to do is find common ground. Inconsistency in policies is what makes many of us confused and frustrated. Especially if we actually do share some of the same goals.
For example, if you want to prevent abortions, education and birth control access must be improved. This includes things like classes in the schools and Planned Parenthood, among others. Preaching only abstinence has clearly failed. And if unwanted pregnancies occur, there must be system in place to assist these children so they have a chance.... and to support women so that they do not feel alone or helpless.
If you believe in pro-life because you believe that life is sacred and you should not murder, then you should be consistent and be against the death penalty.
You wrote--- "Who suffers when the abortion doesn't take place and an unfit parent proceeds with giving birth? The child. And I am speaking from experience."
And yet, here you are, typing away, expressing your views, went to school, probably having a pretty good life. Need I name all the people who've lived thru abuse, poverty, neglect, and turned out successful, happy, giving. OTOH, we know many children born to parents who Wanted children and had no reason to think they'd be rotten parents, turn out--- rotten.
If a woman feels she has to give a reason for an abortion, the 'I killed the fetus to save the fetus' reason is about the most self-serving bunk she can come up with.
As for "coming up with solutions to prevent the pregnancy in the first place," the most effective way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is the proper, consistent use of bc.
Exactly, but then they claim it doesn't work. They fail to recognize how many women use BC, just fine and don't get pregnant.
Most women I know that have gotten pregnant, forgot to take their pill or whatever they're using.
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) After all, to get back on PP, that is what PP does: sex education, birth control dispensing, pre-abortion counseling (yes, many girls have been successfully talked out of it! 
