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It's not always that simple. We had a patient who had a very rare condition. She was born with no sex organs whatsoever. No testes, no ovaries, no penis, no vagina. Just a ureter. Boy Scouts? Girl Scouts, or should the poor kid just stay home miserable?
I've also been told that I had a distant cousin who was a hermaphrodite, which means she had both sets of genitalia. In the old days, they used to just operate and remove the penis of such patients, but some of them hit puberty and were definitely male in the brain. It was a terrible miscarriage of justice that they cut off their genitalia as newborns.
So should a boy in that situation be able to join?
As you say " We had a patient who had a very rare condition." Which was so unique that it should have required special decisions to accommodate "her".
As a college student I was at a County Fair in WVa where a hermaphrodite put on a show. It was more medical than a sex show, but was advertised as a sexual subject. The model was female who had what appeared to be a normal vagina (back in the hair days). She opened her legs to display a rather small penis that seemed to be attached to her near the bottom or back of the vulva. She manipulated it to get it large enough for the heavy audience to see it. At that it was still smaller than a normal penis.
It's not always that simple. We had a patient who had a very rare condition. She was born with no sex organs whatsoever. No testes, no ovaries, no penis, no vagina. Just a ureter. Boy Scouts? Girl Scouts, or should the poor kid just stay home miserable?
I've also been told that I had a distant cousin who was a hermaphrodite, which means she had both sets of genitalia. In the old days, they used to just operate and remove the penis of such patients, but some of them hit puberty and were definitely male in the brain. It was a terrible miscarriage of justice that they cut off their genitalia as newborns.
So should a boy in that situation be able to join?
Thanks for sharing these examples. I frequently bring up children born with no or both sets of genitalia when I discuss transgenderism.
Are these people freaks too? If this stuff can happen to people, why can't transgenderism also be something one is born with as well? People like to see things black and white (I am guilty of this too for some things). But biology is not black and white. Biology makes a lot of mistakes. A lot can and does go "wrong" when creating a human. All it takes is one mutation and someone is born "different."
These people are extremely rare. Someone said before, why should we accommodate .2% of the population? I don't know, it sounds fair to some people that a poor child born with no sex organs at all doesn't get to be a Scout at all? Doesn't get to play sports on teams where they decide you have to be a boy or girl to play? It's not right and I don't know how anyone can defend it.
It's because you have not once said you thought you WERE a boy. "I am a boy" vs. "I wish I was a boy." This seems to be the distinction with trans kids. Knowing since you could talk, since you could remember and form thoughts, that something was wrong. If you don't want people to scrutinize your anecdotes and compare you to actual trans kids... don't post them. You keep getting all offended and telling people YOU are the only one who knows how you felt... okay, yes, but what you described is NOT the same that many trans kids describe, something that is commonly cited. Clearly there is a difference between you - not a trans person - and actual trans people. Clearly some kids DON'T outgrow that phase... and it seems the difference is exactly HOW they feel and WHAT they say. It's a small difference and easy to get tied up but it's also big enough to matter. "I am" vs. "I wish" or "I want to be." Wanting to turn into a boy, and saying that you ARE a boy despite your sex... not the same.
Had your parents just let you not wear dresses and act more "boyish" (not necessarily letting you live fully as a boy) maybe your posts here would be much different. You seem very bitter to be honest, and I think you'd be a lot less bitter. It's a shame and I'm sorry, truly sorry, you didn't get to be more like what you wanted to be. Like I said earlier, things are gendered - clothes, toys, activities, colors, etc. - because we gender them. There is no reason a child who is a girl cannot dress or look more like a boy and do more "boyish" things if she wishes. There doesn't have to be a full transition - nothing like the example of Jazz Jennings I posted before (and a kid who isn't actually trans probably wouldn't want a full transition anyway, or would at least grow out of it if they did) - but blurring the lines between gender roles and other things typifying gender (a social construct) is fine. I would not make my daughter wear a dress and dress very girly if she did not want to. I would not tell my son he couldn't play with dolls or wear pink. Society has come a long way since you were a kid, which is a good thing, and we still have a ways to go but eventually we will keep breaking barriers.
I have no ideal where you have come up with the notion that I am bitter from what I have written, because I was not and am not. If anything I am grateful and have said so. I feel that my parents handled it very well. I get that you don't like that I, who has lived through this, keeps saying that I am concerned by the current trend towards young social transition but that does not delegitimize my experience. Unless you are a medical professional who specializes GID your diagnosis is nothing more than your opinion, and it is one you have arrived at with having minuscule knowledge about me.
Did you go through this as a child? If your answer is no then you have absolutely no idea what it is like. I don't care if your child, neighbor, cousin, or the kid in the paper did, if you yourself have never walked in these shoes all you can do is assume what it is like. I find it amazing that anyone would think they have the right to declare another person wrong about their own experiences.
The problem, by the way, is not about playing with this toy or that. It isn't with the color of clothing they choose. The problem is when there is insistence that they be called by another name because their current one reflects their biological gender too much, or insist that everyone refer to them by a different set of pronouns than their biological ones, or insistence that they be able to use bathroom/locker room facilities of the opposite gender to their birth one. (Please note, I did not say anything about using gender neutral facilities.) The biggest problem of all is when they have parents who create a media circus surrounding their gender. When that is done they can't later change their mind, which the research says occurs in 80+% of GIS children, without it being yet another big hairy deal.
Just because you don't like what I say doesn't mean I am wrong, nor does it mean you know better than I do what I experienced.
They have NOT figured out yet how to determine which kids will persist and which will desist.
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Did you go through this as a child? If your answer is no then you have absolutely no idea what it is like. I don't care if your child, neighbor, cousin, or the kid in the paper did, if you yourself have never walked in these shoes all you can do is assume what it is like. I find it amazing that anyone would think they have the right to declare another person wrong about their own experiences.
The problem, by the way, is not about playing with this toy or that. It isn't with the color of clothing they choose. The problem is when there is insistence that they be called by another name because their current one reflects their biological gender too much, or insist that everyone refer to them by a different set of pronouns than their biological ones, or insistence that they be able to use bathroom/locker room facilities of the opposite gender to their birth one. (Please note, I did not say anything about using gender neutral facilities.) The biggest problem of all is when they have parents who create a media circus surrounding their gender. When that is done they can't later change their mind, which the research says occurs in 80+% of GIS children, without it being yet another big hairy deal.
Just because you don't like what I say doesn't mean I am wrong, nor does it mean you know better than I do what I experienced.
No one has said you are wrong. I don't know where you keep getting this and why you keep saying it. However, there is clearly a difference between you and a transgender child. It's not crazy to say that you probably didn't have the exact experiences and feelings inside as a trans child.
I have said multiple times that I don't know what it's like to be trans... but neither do you. Because you are not. Whatever you experienced was clearly not transgenderism. There is an obvious difference between kids who outgrow what you experienced and those who do not.
There are plenty of trans kids who live a quiet life with parents who don't broadcast their lives to the world. They are probably the majority. A child who is truly trans is not going to change his or her mind. I don't think one can say a sweeping generalization like "no child who goes through this should be allowed to transition at all in case they change their mind." I think it would depend on the individual. How much of a "transition" occurs and what exactly is done would depend on the individual. I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't let their child do.
Perhaps you and I have different ideas as to what transgenderism is and who is and isn't transgender. But I would imagine that someone who outgrows something that you experienced as a child is not transgender.
If you think you are a gender that does not match your plumbing, you have a MENTAL problem.
It's not fixed by law nor ideology.
I don't think. I know. Beyond any doubt. And no, I don't have a mental problem. That you want it to be so, does not make it so. You and others saying that I have a mental problem when you don't even know me, is as ridiculous as the myriad of other armchair psychiatrists "diagnosing" President Trump with a plethora of psychological and mental disorders. It's wrong for them to do so, and it's wrong for you to do so. You should follow the same guidelines as Psychiatrists and therapists. Use The Goldwater Rule, which states that it is irresponsible and unethical to diagnose someone you've never met with. It's REALLY irresponsible and unethical to diagnose someone if you don't even have the training to do so.
But you are right in that it is not fixed by ideology. As I've said repeatedly, this is NOT a liberal vs. conservative issue, this is a gender issue.
I don't think. I know. Beyond any doubt. And no, I don't have a mental problem. That you want it to be so, does not make it so. You and others saying that I have a mental problem when you don't even know me, is as ridiculous as the myriad of other armchair psychiatrists "diagnosing" President Trump with a plethora of psychological and mental disorders. It's wrong for them to do so, and it's wrong for you to do so. You should follow the same guidelines as Psychiatrists and therapists. Use The Goldwater Rule, which states that it is irresponsible and unethical to diagnose someone you've never met with. It's REALLY irresponsible and unethical to diagnose someone if you don't even have the training to do so.
But you are right in that it is not fixed by ideology. As I've said repeatedly, this is NOT a liberal vs. conservative issue, this is a gender issue.
Did you go through this as a child? If your answer is no then you have absolutely no idea what it is like. I don't care if your child, neighbor, cousin, or the kid in the paper did, if you yourself have never walked in these shoes all you can do is assume what it is like. I find it amazing that anyone would think they have the right to declare another person wrong about their own experiences.
Please have yourself, roaddog, workin hard, jetgraphics and others apply that to me as well. I've walked my road, I don't need you all telling me I'm wrong, and that I am mentally unstable, contrary to the mountain of medical evidence stating the exact opposite.
Quote:
Just because you don't like what I say doesn't mean I am wrong, nor does it mean you know better than I do what I experienced.
And neither do you know better than I about what I have experienced, and lived through.
No one has said you are wrong. I don't know where you keep getting this and why you keep saying it. However, there is clearly a difference between you and a transgender child. It's not crazy to say that you probably didn't have the exact experiences and feelings inside as a trans child.
I have said multiple times that I don't know what it's like to be trans... but neither do you. Because you are not. Whatever you experienced was clearly not transgenderism. There is an obvious difference between kids who outgrow what you experienced and those who do not.
There are plenty of trans kids who live a quiet life with parents who don't broadcast their lives to the world. They are probably the majority. A child who is truly trans is not going to change his or her mind. I don't think one can say a sweeping generalization like "no child who goes through this should be allowed to transition at all in case they change their mind." I think it would depend on the individual. How much of a "transition" occurs and what exactly is done would depend on the individual. I'm not going to tell people what they can and can't let their child do.
Perhaps you and I have different ideas as to what transgenderism is and who is and isn't transgender. But I would imagine that someone who outgrows something that you experienced as a child is not transgender.
But, see that's the thing, what several researchers have found is that there isn't, at least not significant enough to establish a set of criteria to use.
No, I am not transgender. I don't do the whole feminine thing well, but I am happy to be a woman. I don't think prepubescent children should be labeled transsexual precisely because there are so many that will end up desisting.
This is the current DSM criteria. Kids who end up growing into transgender adults fall under it as well as kids who will end up desisting sometime during puberty.
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302.6 Gender Identity Disorder in Children
Gender Incongruence (in children) [1]
A. A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, of at least 6 months duration, as manifested by at least 6* of the following indicators (including A1): [2, 3, 4]
1. a strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that he or she is the other gender [5]
2. in boys, a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; in girls, a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing [6]
3. a strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe or fantasy play [7]
4. a strong preference for the toys, games, or activities typical of the other gender [8]
5. a strong preference for playmates of the other gender [9]
6. in boys, a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; in girls, a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities [10]
7. a strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy [11]
8. a strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender [12]
Please have yourself, roaddog, workin hard, jetgraphics and others apply that to me as well. I've walked my road, I don't need you all telling me I'm wrong, and that I am mentally unstable, contrary to the mountain of medical evidence stating the exact opposite.
And neither do you know better than I about what I have experienced, and lived through.
I have done none of that. None. I actually agree with you, I know you are not wrong. My problem is that there is currently a trend of rushing towards complete social transition, and even worse medical intervention, in prepubescent children. I just want a wait and see approach with prepubescent children because so many end up desisting. You were not one.
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