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Guess you didn't actually read the studies or just decided to ignore that iatrogenic part. The sources I gave you, if they are biased at all, lean towards post-puberty or adult transgender support. The current trend of gender changing at too young of an age has the potential to permanently hurt far more children with gender dysmorphia or non-compliant gender identity than it could help. They have not been able to identify what children are most likely to remain gender dysmorphic. So far the research indicates there does not appear to be a correlation in the extent of the child's expression of desire to be the other gender, so you can't go by that. They just don't know enough for our society to be advocating mandatory gender shifts at a pre-adult stage.
They do know that parents expressing negative judgement of the child ("You're a freak") does cause psychological problems. Please note that is not the same as telling the child they need to conform to society norms, at least when in public, and when they are old enough to make choices for themselves there will be other options ("Since you are a girl you can't join Boy Scouts, but we'll search for a Girl Scout troop that does a lot of camping").
I know it is the current cool thing to advocate allowing young children to live as their desired gender, that there is a tendency to ignore or dismiss reasearch that contradict one's beliefs, but we are basically doing a social experiment on young children in real time with at least some proven negative outcomes. Are you seriously willing to take above a 70% chance that you are doing irreparable psychological harm to a child?
You said that children that young cannot be transgender. Still nothing you have posted since supports that. Anything else is irrelevant.
Your quotes do not support what you are saying. The ICD 11 issue is part of the continuing effort to remove nonconforming gender as a mental disorder. It in no way denies that children can be transgendered and it does not say that allowing children who believe they are transgendered to express that belief will harm them if they change their orientation when they are older.
You said that children that young cannot be transgender. Still nothing you have posted since supports that. Anything else is irrelevant.
To begin with there isn't a transgender diagnosis, it's gender dysmorphia (old gender identity disorder). And again, the vast majority of children who experience gender dysmorphia prior to puberty will "outgrow" it. They have not figured out to determine the very small number of children who will remain gender dysmorphic and until they do it is irresponsible to treat these young kids as the alternate gender. Developmentally, children are not gender aware until 3-4 years old and even then it is a very rudimentary understanding, so I am truly confused by these transgendered toddlers.
By the way in only 20% of the cases of identical twins (share same DNA, same in utero environment) when one twin has gender dysmorphia does the other twin have it. There is suspicion now that some people are biologically vulnerable to it and it is triggered by something else.
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This is an important thing to bring up, if nothing else for conversation sake.
There are some that do experience regret. I've read that Caitlyn (??) Karkrashian is considering de-transitioning. A few others have said that changing their physical sex didn't fix anything. To this I say
"Duh, no sh-t Sherlock, it's not supposed to."
There is so much that goes into this. I get the feeling that these people thought that undergoing hormone therapy and surgery is just going to magically fix all their problems and make everything all better. That's BS. If they didn't do all of the incredibly difficult introspection and work on the inside, correcting the exterior is not going to solve anything, you'll just be twice as miserable as before. That's why we get emotional,mental (spiritual if necessary) counseling LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNGGGG before you even begin dreaming of taking that first pill (injection, patch, etc.). I get the feeling that these people experiencing regret didn't do all of that head work first, and just believed it would just all be fixed with hormones and some surgery. I was in therapy for about four years before my therapist cleared me for hormones, and I'm so thankful she did it that way, because all of the hard work was done a long time ago, and now it's just more or less a waiting game. Waiting for the hormones to do their work, and later surgery to complete the process. This not even something to just jump into or "try."
Some folks on here make me laugh, going on about "liberal social engineering"---it's silly. Did you all know that there are conservative transpeople as well? I know two who are. We come from all walks of life. This isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's a gender issue.
To begin with there isn't a transgender diagnosis, it's gender dysmorphia (old gender identity disorder). And again, the vast majority of children who experience gender dysmorphia prior to puberty will "outgrow" it. They have not figured out to determine the very small number of children who will remain gender dysmorphic and until they do it is irresponsible to treat these young kids as the alternate gender. Developmentally, children are not gender aware until 3-4 years old and even then it is a very rudimentary understanding, so I am truly confused by these transgendered toddlers.
By the way in only 20% of the cases of identical twins (share same DNA, same in utero environment) when one twin has gender dysmorphia does the other twin have it. There is suspicion now that some people are biologically vulnerable to it and it is triggered by something else.
Again - you said that children that young cannot be transgender and nothing you have shared supports this. You're going on about different stuff. Most kids outgrow gender dysmorphia, okay. You think that kids with gender dysmorphia shouldn't be allowed to dress or act like the opposite gender (even though it does no harm IF THE KID WANTS IT and it's not being pushed on them by others), whatever, that's your opinion. They haven't figured out how to weed out the kids who won't outgrow it (which sounds like the kids who are transgender and will officially be labeled as so later in life, but okay)... okay. That doesn't mean a child cannot be transgender.
Many people who are transgender teens or adults report having those feelings from a very young age. If they aren't transgender at that young age, at birth even, that implies they become transgender at some later point - most likely a mental illness theory. I personally don't believe this is true and nothing you have shared shows me this is true, over the biological theory - that they are born that way, just like gay people are born that way. That something goes wrong in development, like with those who are born with both male and female genitalia.
You keep repeating the same stuff (suggesting to me you have an agenda here) when none of it is relevant to my initial challenge to your post earlier on - in which you said that young children cannot be transgender. Nothing you have shared says this. You keep rehashing the same points to me in response and nothing even says what I am questioning. I'm baffled by your insistence here. It seems that YOU don't think that children that young can be transgender... which is fine. But it seemed to me you spoke it as FACT. It's not fact at this point in time. The bottom line is, they just don't know. They don't know why the small number of kids with gender dysmorphia DON'T outgrow it... but that doesn't mean that young kids cannot be transgender. Because it sounds to me like those who don't outgrow it ARE transgender... they just fear labeling it BECAUSE so many outgrow the dysmorphia. Perhaps you're just getting stuck on labels here. They don't want to label it yet... that doesn't mean they aren't transgender.
I don't know how much more you want to go back and forth here, but I'm pretty over it.
Behavior can impact brain development and plasticity, so it's possible that appeasing these thoughts at a young age could impact the brain and make the brain of a boy act more like the brain of a girl. Wait for natural hormones to work and the brain to develop and if the person still wants to change sex after that then see a doctor for a sex change.
This is similar to saying someone can be taught to be homosexual. Do you have any evidence to support what you are saying?
Those "natural hormones" begin working while the individual is still in utero.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
It's not just surgery that is the issue. The percentage of children is "outgrow" it are significant. Longitudinal studies need to be done before we totally alter society. I do not think that is an unreasonable stance.
The number of transgendered people is tiny compared to the total population. How does supporting children who identify as transgender going to "totally alter society"?
The American College of Pediatricians is a right wing organization with only a small number of members and does not speak for the majority of US pediatricians. Among other things it opposes adoption by gay parents.
The American Academy of Pediatrics advocates for early support of children with gender dysphoria.
"The study, 'Mental Health of Transgender Children Who are Supported in Their Identities,' in the March 2016 issue of Pediatrics (published online on Feb. 26) presents new research on the positive mental health outcomes of prepubescent transgender children who socially transition, or begin to live expressing their gender identities.
... children allowed to exhibit their gender, by changing their names, clothing, pronoun use, and hairstyles, had normal levels of depression, and anxiety levels only slightly above their peers.
While previous research has shown that gender nonconforming youth often have elevated rates of depression and anxiety, this study suggests that familial support can be associated with good mental health outcomes among transgender children."
"... there is no perfect test to predict what is best for each child. But delayed-transition advocates treat unnecessary or mistaken gender transition as the worst-case scenario, rather than balancing this risk with the consequences of the delay. There is no evidence that another transition later on, either back to the original gender or to another gender altogether, would be harmful for a socially transitioned child — especially if the child had support in continuing to explore their gender identity. "
The article also points out that untreated gender dysphoria can result in depression, anxiety, social problems, school failure, self-harm and suicide. Delaying treatment has consequences, and not allowing young children the freedom to express their identity as they see it is harmful.
One of the social problems is evident in the incident in the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1
To begin with there isn't a transgender diagnosis, it's gender dysmorphia (old gender identity disorder). And again, the vast majority of children who experience gender dysmorphia prior to puberty will "outgrow" it. They have not figured out to determine the very small number of children who will remain gender dysmorphic and until they do it is irresponsible to treat these young kids as the alternate gender. Developmentally, children are not gender aware until 3-4 years old and even then it is a very rudimentary understanding, so I am truly confused by these transgendered toddlers.
By the way in only 20% of the cases of identical twins (share same DNA, same in utero environment) when one twin has gender dysmorphia does the other twin have it. There is suspicion now that some people are biologically vulnerable to it and it is triggered by something else.
Because of the way genes are turned on and turned off even "identical" twins are not 100% identical. My internist was discussing family history of heart disease and mentioned he has in his practice a pair of identical twins who have entirely different blood lipid panels.
You want to ignore the children who do not "outgrow" their nonconforming gender identity. Just because you are "confused" about toddlers with gender dysphoria does not mean they do not exist. There are indeed signs that can help identify those whose non-conformity will persist. See the previous links.
Note also that the last link makes a distinction between non-conformity and dysphoria and provides the evidence that supporting a young child who does not conform prevents the dysphoria - the psychological issues that the non-conformity can produce.
No single Boy Scout or Girl Scout group is likely to see a large number of transgender children. Accommodating the few who wish to participate is not going to harm anyone, including their peers.
Last edited by Ibginnie; 01-01-2017 at 03:48 PM..
Reason: rude
You keep repeating the same stuff (suggesting to me you have an agenda here) when none of it is relevant to my initial challenge to your post earlier on - in which you said that young children cannot be transgender. Nothing you have shared says this. You keep rehashing the same points to me in response and nothing even says what I am questioning. I'm baffled by your insistence here. It seems that YOU don't think that children that young can be transgender... which is fine. But it seemed to me you spoke it as FACT. It's not fact at this point in time. The bottom line is, they just don't know. They don't know why the small number of kids with gender dysmorphia DON'T outgrow it... but that doesn't mean that young kids cannot be transgender. Because it sounds to me like those who don't outgrow it ARE transgender... they just fear labeling it BECAUSE so many outgrow the dysmorphia. Perhaps you're just getting stuck on labels here. They don't want to label it yet... that doesn't mean they aren't transgender.
I don't know how much more you want to go back and forth here, but I'm pretty over it.
Yes, I do have an agenda. Having personally lived through this, I strongly believe that until further longitudinal research has been done to establish a more reliable way of determining which prepubescent children with gender dysmorphia will be persistent and which are likely to "outgrow" it (currently estimated at above 70-80%) the public alteration of gender identification, name changing, and transsexual labeling - let alone giving hormones - needs to stop. The chances of iatrogenic impact is very real. We are experimenting with these kids on a wholesale level without having an unbiased measure of the physiological, psychological, and emotional longterm outcome, and the result is that we are basing our public policy approach on what a vocal groups thinks is best. It is irresponsible.
As I stated before, I am so grateful I grew up when I did. I can not imagine how confused I would have been if my parents and the schools had labeled me a boy, called me a different name, had me play boys' sports, and joined the Boy Scouts, all at my insistence as a young child, and then I started realizing I liked being a girl, after all, once puberty hit. It would be like claiming you were robbed, filing a report, having the person convicted and sent to jail, only to discover the stuff a couple of years later in an old shoebox.
Yeah, I admit it, I do have an agenda. I also have a real life understanding of what it is like to walk the walk of the majority of gender dysmorphic children. My addenda, by the way, is first do no harm.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.
Some folks on here make me laugh, going on about "liberal social engineering"---it's silly. Did you all know that there are conservative transpeople as well? I know two who are. We come from all walks of life. This isn't a liberal vs. conservative issue. It's a gender issue.
She's is a girl and will always be a female. You cannot change your chromosomes. The child is mentally ill.
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