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I spent 13 months in Vietnam. I had some of my unit drop beside me. I shot some on the other side. I agree with what you say. We were using the M 16, most of them were using Chinese versions of other rifles. None had big holes in them. Some ammo did tumble but that was because of a defect in the 16. That tumble decreased velocity and accuracy.
Newer ammo is much improved. As you probably know, the tumbling and fragmentation is not designed to happen until the projectile enters the human being.
There is no feature or defect that I am aware of that makes the bullet current tumble on the way to the target. That is why the DC shooter (for example) was able to fire from so far away and kill with one shot. The Vegas shooter did the same thing.
According to recent studies, mortality from civilian gunshot wounds (here) is actually increasing - that is, victims are MORE likely to die. Why? Well, since the NRA shut down any research on the issue, the facts available make the best guess to be that the weapons and ammo have improved.
That's all good and fine for the military. Maybe even OK for LE.
But we are talking about regular men, women and children. They react differently to being shot then highly conditioned people in their late teens.
OF COURSE if you fire the same projectile from a similar length of barrel with similar rifling the effect will be similar.
No one denies this.
AND, of course it was designed for light weight.....so a solider could carry and fire more rounds without as heavy of a load.
But the projectile itself is designed specifically to do harm to the human body in certain ways. Here is just one profile of what a nurse or doc would be dealing with inside a human being: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×...ballistics.gif
The initial cavity is about 30 x 15/20 cm or 10" by 6". Note the size of the bullet in relation to the damage done.
The Human body is a delicate thing. One small nick of a blood vessel or bowel is enough to kill....slowly and painfully. Carving baseball size cavities at high speed inside us is just not a good thing.
It's not a "beat your chest" thing of who knows the most about how much damage is done. That was well proven in Las Vegas and in many other shootings.
The really simple situation here is that with a bolt action rifle the Las Vegas and Pulse and some other shootings would have done vastly less damage. Another consideration is the legality or quasi-legality and need for certain ammo "flavors".
In any case, this thread is about Public Safety and I'd support the banning of large knives, swords, nightsticks and other weapons in a protest at a Government (and many other) facilities. Most people would support them same.
Whether your member......ship....or your bullet or arsenal is bigger or smaller than mine or a Neo-Nazis is not the point. Women, children and government officials and the Press and many others will be there unarmed and to allow those Neo-Nazis and other radicals to parade around with semi-auto rifles or even pistols is nuts.
Any gun nut who is experiencing withdraw can go to a range nearby and have fun.
Ummm...what? You are actually claiming that the ammunition made for I'm assuming the AR15/M16 is somehow designed for more tissue damage? It's not. The ammunition the military uses is not engineered in any such way. Never has been.
In soft tissue it will make a through and through wound just like any solid jacket bullet. It does NOT "tumble" by design. That is a complete falsehood.
And I'm hardly thumping my chest or advocating for the carrying of weapons at the pending rally. Quite the opposite if you have seen my earlier posts. And nowhere have I made any comments comparing size of gun collections.
Back it down a couple grand. Your taching close to redline.
Newer ammo is much improved. As you probably know, the tumbling and fragmentation is not designed to happen until the projectile enters the human being.
There is no feature or defect that I am aware of that makes the bullet current tumble on the way to the target. That is why the DC shooter (for example) was able to fire from so far away and kill with one shot. The Vegas shooter did the same thing.
According to recent studies, mortality from civilian gunshot wounds (here) is actually increasing - that is, victims are MORE likely to die. Why? Well, since the NRA shut down any research on the issue, the facts available make the best guess to be that the weapons and ammo have improved.
That's all good and fine for the military. Maybe even OK for LE.
But we are talking about regular men, women and children. They react differently to being shot then highly conditioned people in their late teens.
Newer ammo is much improved. As you probably know, the tumbling and fragmentation is not designed to happen until the projectile enters the human being.
There is no feature or defect that I am aware of that makes the bullet current tumble on the way to the target. That is why the DC shooter (for example) was able to fire from so far away and kill with one shot. The Vegas shooter did the same thing.
According to recent studies, mortality from civilian gunshot wounds (here) is actually increasing - that is, victims are MORE likely to die. Why? Well, since the NRA shut down any research on the issue, the facts available make the best guess to be that the weapons and ammo have improved.
That's all good and fine for the military. Maybe even OK for LE.
But we are talking about regular men, women and children. They react differently to being shot then highly conditioned people in their late teens.
corpgypsy claimed that the 223 made a 6" x 10" hole. Anyone who has ever shot anything like that knows that is not true.
2) The NRA shut down any research on the issue? Then how did all the studies cited in my link get conducted?
P.S. Please note that I linked to an article that is clearly not pro-gun by any stretch of the imagination.
There is NO source anywhere other than sensationalist anti firearms postulations that will back up these wild claims of ammunition performance being put out.
Its utterly ridiculous. Ammunition made for the AR/M16 does not in any way do what is being claimed. "Fragmentation and tumbling" in the human body? Not now or ever has there been any such bullet even requested by the military.
For one it would be a violation of the Hauge Accords and this breaking international law. The military has adopted a heavier bullet weight of 77 grains. But it's still plain old ball ammo.
Nothing special about it. What a load of reeking bilge. (sigh) On a recent range trip my buddy and I set up 4 bowling pins. 2 at 50 yards and 2 at 100. First up I shot each pin with 62 gr M855 from my AR.
They didnt even twitch. Not even a little wiggle. They stayed firmly on the 6 inch x 6 inch platforms on the stands. Each one was hit dead center and the entry and exit holes were extremely hard to even see. In and out completely clean.
Hitting them with 150 gr 308 ball had the same result. Through and through so fast the pini s never moved. Hardly "Fragmentation and tumbling." effects.
Last edited by NVplumber; 01-16-2020 at 06:37 PM..
Doesn’t matter, an angry gun carrying crowd can be very dangerous. Besides, this event will probably draw some dangerous armed people from out-of-town.
Your “right to carry” a gun does not trump someone else’s right to live.
Doesn’t matter, an angry gun carrying crowd can be very dangerous. Besides, this event will probably draw some dangerous armed people from out-of-town.
Your “right to carry” a gun does not trump someone else’s right to live.
I do agree that participants in this event should not do so armed. Maybe for different reasons but I still feel that way. Organizers and participants should also police their own ranks. Making it known in no uncertain terms that Hitler humpers and their ilk are not welcome.
To my thinking there is no future in escalating things by showing up overtly armed. Things are tense enough.
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