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Well said. I don't give a rat's @ss about abortion one way or another. I used to care more about pro-choice but the left's utter obsession with it has driven me away. On a priority scale of issues that can make or break the function of this country, abortion is about 638th on the list. Furthermore I'm just feeling downright ornery and unsympathetic about supporting the pro-choice movement anymore. It's been made so plain to me that whereas I support every single one of the dems/liberals personal freedoms, they don't support all of mine. This is not an equitable socio-political arrangement between me and the left. Congratulations a-holes. You've driven away a former supporter. FWIW the republicans are way too fixated on abortion as well. Again ... 638th on the damn list. Focus. The importance given this issue is downright retarded.
The Democrats seek control of your money, the Republicans seek control of your soul. Both are statist, both are evil.
The Democrats seek control of your money, the Republicans seek control of your soul. Both are statist, both are evil.
The Democrats seek control of your everything. Your speech, thought, how much money you can earn, how you manage the property you own, the degree to which you can defend yourself, the food you can eat, your sense of humor, your identity ranking in society, the vehicles you drive, your freedom of movement, when and where you worship, the definition of gender. All of it. The media, entertainment, law enforcement, intelligence agencies, academia, big business and our culture. They control it all and they want more. They are the very definition of totalitarian. Mao would have been so proud of what they have achieved.
Ah, so the key is in defining, as in what the definition of "is" is. Well, yes, if we are not talking about the same thing that would create a problem in communicating. Okay, I'm with you so far. Still with you.
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Here is where we separate. If you die, you cease to exist. That's quite different than continuing in someone else's body, with memory or not. Sentience still continues? You earlier gave a definition of sentience as "able to perceive or feel things". After your death, that ceases.
Other organisms are still able to perceive things after we die. Therefore, sentience still continues. It might as well be yours...just without your memories and unique genetic traits, if you want it to be, and if you don't, there's no reason to see things that way.
In that sense, after your death, your sentience does not cease...only your memories and individual genetic traits do.
If you can think of any difference between your sentience and anyone else's once your unique genetic traits and memories are removed...by all means, list the differences. I can think of none.
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You have been telling me that a fetus alive in the womb has no perception, but are asking me to accept when a person dies, their perception passes to another person? and when someone else dies, their perception or sentience passes to us? If we can use that analogy between two unrelated people, perhaps we can use the same analogy by which the mother's perception has transferred to the fetus by the unique bond between them. Now we have a completely new playing field.Well actually, the world can work anyway you want it........so long as you look at it a certain way. People attempt to prove that everyday.
I am out of time for now. I will address the rest of your post later.
A fetus in the womb has forms of perception...at least at some points in the pregnancy, depending on what we mean by "perception"...quite possibly the ability to experience pain later into the pregnancy. What it does not have is any way to determine that death itself is a negative thing. To view death itself...not the common pain or unpleasantness, but just death, as a negative thing for yourself, you've got to understand it somewhat.
Lions and dogs don't have any way to determine that death is a negative thing either...for themselves, at least. They might feel negative feelings when one of their fellow organisms they're close to leaves them, through death or other means, but they lack the understanding of death to perceive death itself as a negative thing. They don't understand what it us.
Now...there are many common side-effects of death they'll want to avoid. They won't want to suffer. They won't like pain or other unpleasant sensations...but without an understanding of death or the ability to make complex, long term plans for the future that one wants to achieve, death really can't be that big of a deal if it's painless.
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Yes...we could say that some aspects of the mother's perception have passed to the fetus through a unique bond between them.
I disagree that the world can work anyway we want it to though. There are limits. For example, while my sentience might be said to live in on my dog...if it's still around and I'm not, if my concern is the continuation of my self-awareness, that may well not be able to continue through my dog. I may have to settle for a dolphin for that. Dolphins are more likely to have a sense of self-awareness than dogs, from what I've heard.
Fetal homicide laws are just bad laws. They reflect an emotional desire to punish those who assault or kill pregnant women. We can change them, and address the punishment in the sentencing phase. They are a mistake. Because a law is passed regarding a phenomenon does not make that law reflective of what is real or true.
Hate speech laws are another example of bad laws. We pass bad laws all the time. You are hanging your hat on a bad law to make a bad point.
I think they might involve excessive legal punishments in some cases...but fetal homicide laws do cover an additional level of harm that I think needs to be taken into account. If a pregnant woman is assaulted, and the organism she's been thinking of as her baby dies...that's harming her life plans and causing additional emotional damage, even if it doesn't cause additional physical damage to the mother.
Although...I might envision some problems if the assaulter thought the woman was merely overweight. In that case, you're not punishing someone for an additional harm they had a reason to suspect would occur.
There needs to be some penalty for forcing an abortion though.
I think they might involve excessive legal punishments in some cases...but fetal homicide laws do cover an additional level of harm that I think needs to be taken into account. If a pregnant woman is assaulted, and the organism she's been thinking of as her baby dies...that's harming her life plans and causing additional emotional damage, even if it doesn't cause additional physical damage to the mother.
Although...I might envision some problems if the assaulter thought the woman was merely overweight. In that case, you're not punishing someone for an additional harm they had a reason to suspect would occur.
There needs to be some penalty for forcing an abortion though.
absolutely agree, and I favor a severe punishment. But the sentencing phase can take into account aggravated aspects of the case. Maybe the punishment is triple for a pregnant woman. I’m fine with putting someone who attacks a pregnant woman away for decades if not forever.
And they specifically target minority women. 79% of PP's surgical abortion facilities are located in/near majority African American or Hispanic/Latino neighborhoods. Consequently, Black women have the highest abortion rate, followed by Hispanic women.
Source: Population Group Lifetime Abortion Rates, American Journal of Public Health, 2017
Abortion is racist. It's a manifestation of white supremacy. Think very carefully about that fact.
I think you have a moral obligation to show us all why the obvious possible non-racist explanation for that we're all probably wondering about doesn't apply. One explanation I'm wondering about...which I think you should look up and refute, or verify, not me, is the possibility that minority groups, being minority groups, tend to congregate in areas with high populations of people in general, to meet fellow members of their minority group more easily. Naturally, people will want abortion clinics in areas with high populations for easiest possible convenience.
absolutely agree, and I favor a severe punishment. But the sentencing phase can take into account aggravated aspects of the case. Maybe the punishment is triple for a pregnant woman. I’m fine with putting someone who attacks a pregnant woman away for decades if not forever.
You are right, he doesn't. But a father absolutely should get a say in whether his son or daughter is killed. And please don't go with the rapist trope. Do you know what percentage of abortions are of children conceived in rape?
Not unless he is currently in a relationship with the mother...and even then, not in the legal sense. She's the one doing all the work until birth. She's the one who gets the main say until then.
Actually you really don’t change all that much. Your identity exists. Some deterioration occurs. Some growth occurs. But you remain a specific entity with a limited time of existence. And there is no evidence that your consciousness goes anywhere but “off” when you die.
I agree completely...in the contexts you're talking about.
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In any case, a reflexive early biological reaction should not be equated with sentience. Feeling implies a mental process of integrating sensory percepts and processing them through a functioning brain. A 12 week old fetus feels nothing. It just exhibits primitive neurological reflexive reactions to various stimuli. No need to make that into something it cannot be. Which anti-choice people MUST do to support an irrational and untenable fantasy.
In any case, a reflexive early biological reaction should not be equated with sentience. Feeling implies a mental process of integrating sensory percepts and processing them through a functioning brain. A 12 week old fetus feels nothing. It just exhibits primitive neurological reflexive reactions to various stimuli. No need to make that into something it cannot be. Which anti-choice people MUST do to support an irrational and untenable fantasy.
By that standard, a woman who is gang-raped after she's been drugged into oblivion suffers no trauma as she is not 'awake' during the violence.
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