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It's not just "they're stupid", many disenfranchised people of all stripes simply do not trust the government to do anything right, and thus any attempt at health care reform will be shot down.
I personally find it hilarious that people who would benefit from this greatly are by and large against a bill which would provide health care insurance. Oh well. I don't care anymore. Be poorer and in worse health. You dug your own grave. And the more well-off social conservatives dug it too.
I rep'd you for the topic being brought up, not because I endorse your sentiments. I'm glad I waited to read the whole thread before replying. The illustration of people pitted against one another in blind ignorance needed a soapbox and a spotlight.
Nutshell answer is conservatives & moderates don't care for the way programs are designed & implemented. The remedy is often worse than the disease because when resources are pooled to concentration, they become subject to abuse by weasels. This undermines unity, and the only ones profiting from that wildly are the crooks themselves.
I think if the question were framed properly... how many americans feel healthcare reform is needful, you would approach unanimity. Where things go wrong is seeing the hand of the gov't being used to inadvertently facilitate exploitation. Extremes of social welfare hurt communities. Extremes of economic welfare for commerce also hurt communities. We need a better choice, with clear objectives stated in policy, and a better plan that's fair to all. Obamacare isn't hammered out enough and the rush to implement has summoned the jackals of commerce to blast the plan with so many loopholes that it's original intent is undermined. Americans should have the right to self determine without being forced into propping up monopolies taking over our government.
Stillwatertownie-- it takes 2 to tango. No american should be forced into a position to defend one amendment right against another. It's one constitution, and must be defended by all equally. D's counterman R's defense of 2nd amendment by pointing out the threat to Pro choice. These types of tactics have to stop.
Mikefrombackeast-- I'd invite you here to WV, but I'm afraid you'd conduct yourself as typical ugly american, the very thing you most resent of conservatives is what you embrace in these characterizations. WV'ns are very earthy people. They aren't contrary for contrary sake, they just think your attitude & values stink to high heaven. They had no problem voting for hillary for some odd reason, but you don't care to see WHY.
As for the rest of your last post, Kudos for ending the personal attacks and presumptions. Still, a plan that is acceptable to all remains to be hammered out to avoid monopoly successfully.
NCN-- the very propaganda communists used to take power and go on to abuse people is the very same propaganda being used to exploit you in hatred of communism. Corruption is corruption no matter who is using it, dem, repub, communists, socialists et al. Our military is arranged in communist structure but you don't call it communism. Insurance by it's very design is socialism. Would you be consistent in your argument, you would have to prohibit insurance and our military method. Boomer generation was taught to duck and cover, to fear communism, and that fear manipulated to be pointed at a nunnery would be wrong. It's also wrong when it's pointed at the other half of your country. Our maker and our nation... how many so called christians are willing to pray for failure? Who would lead you to pray for strife, cruelty, and hatred of your brother? How is that God's love and mercy? Pray for the preservation of our constitution to prevail, as it will defend and protect your right as christian to exist. Pray for it's failure is a prayer requesting misery.
Ray & Huck-- I would add that CEO's setting the tone of leadership for our nation have left us with what values as a nation? No system can be successful unless it benefits all, endorsed by faith and will of the people.
Too funny. Lived in the south for a few years - the only place I've been where the KKK was able to roadblock a major four lane highway so that they could hand out literature to drivers. This was decades after Brown vs. BOE and the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s.
...as I stated I too have had an opposite experience in the South than Ohio. There is still a lot of racism down here.
HarborLady: My mom was born in Weston in 1916, raised in Burnsville and I've been to WV many times. Lots of good people there, but way too little education and still too much racism, which you point out when you say they like Hilary (a white DEM) but not Obama (a black DEM). Many of those who want a better life left long ago, many of them joining the USAF to get out and not end up with black lung.
I recall during the 2008 election that one old WV woman was interviewed and she was scared to death of Obama, saying that if he were elected there'd be a race war. All I could do was in disbelief. I'm sure that same old woman thinks the health care reform is a "give away" for blacks, and it's gonna take a lot of time to change that stinking thinking. Those hard working people in WV, and everywhere in the USA, regardless of color, deserves to have medical care when they need it.
My heart has long gone out to WV and it's people, who've been lied to and cheated by just about every governor and especially by the mining industry. It was so-called liberals and progressives who fought to unionize the mines, getting those men a decent salary and a safe place to work that is free of cave-ins and black lung. IMO, the people of WV are about the most abused people in the nation (this side of our native Indians) for what the mining barons and chemical companies have done to them and the state.
I make no apologies for wanting all of us to be able to see a doctor when sick, no one should have to live like a pauper. I make no apologies for having scrubbed toilets to pay my college bills and live a better life than my parents who wanted a better life for all of us four kids. See my WV family tree at this link.
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Last edited by Mike from back east; 01-30-2010 at 08:43 PM..
Too funny. Lived in the south for a few years - the only place I've been where the KKK was able to roadblock a major four lane highway so that they could hand out literature to drivers. This was decades after Brown vs. BOE and the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s.
well I guess we had different experiences then. doesnt mean im wrong. doesnt mean you're wrong. just means we had different experiences.
only time i ever saw the kkk was not in the south. it was in san francisco bay area. had a parade one day.
Why would poor conservatives not vote for Democratic policies? Oh...........perhaps they haven't been corrupted enough to vote themselves undeserved, unhealthy, unfunded, unconstitutional benefits.......???????
Too funny. Lived in the south for a few years - the only place I've been where the KKK was able to roadblock a major four lane highway so that they could hand out literature to drivers. This was decades after Brown vs. BOE and the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s.
Name the town, and we'll be able to check that out. Brave enough?
I recall during the 2008 election that one old WV woman was interviewed and she was scared to death of Obama, saying that if he were elected there'd be a race war. All I could do was in disbelief. I'm sure that same old woman thinks the health care reform is a "give away" for blacks, and it's gonna take a lot of time to change that stinking thinking. Those hard working people in WV, and everywhere in the USA, regardless of color, deserves to have medical care when they need it.
You may have some very noble intentions, but if you will imagine yourself standing on their porches talking as you do in the forum you'd be defending your mother from yourself! LOL
So howdy cousin, my grandmother hails from Parkersburg, a great grandmother from Shamokin Pa, but I was born and raised in NY. The problem since civil war era is that just about every state in the union has tacitly used and abused WV as scapegoat. The media unanimously portray WV'ns as a national polish joke. See in your own language how you use the negative aspects of them to define them as a whole, ignoring the good. America as a whole could care less about WV or what it thinks until the day you want their vote. "If you're white you're out of sight" means what to liberals?
I understand that woman's perspective. In the context of having lived through riots, seeing poor people pitted against one another since civil war days, seeing the only ray of hope (JFK era) getting snuffed out just as it did when coal miners sought justice that was corrupted by oligarchs... I understand everything she worries about. I worry about it too and glad Hillary said it out loud. Obama taking the job of president might cost him his life, and THAT is something he & his wife willingly accepted in service to their country. Takes courage, does it not? He ran for office without batting an eye. Good for him, and wish it was better for us all if only he could use that brain power of his to see the orchestra that is America is so badly out of harmony with itself. Commerce has successfully pitted states against states competing for participation in economy.
So I don't pretend to have all the answers, or even a ready made solution for anything, but I do know we're going nowhere in a hurry if we continue to treat each other badly. Try to find what there is to respect and work from there. Some don't mean to get along, and lending them inordinate volumes of attention distracts us from working on solutions.
I think if the question were framed properly... how many americans feel healthcare reform is needful, you would approach unanimity.
I don't know about that one harborlady. I hear and read way too much of "government just needs to stay the heck out of our wonderful private market health care system, the very best in the world". Then shut our eyes and tap our toes and wallah, all is good in munchkinland.
This is what frustrates many. I would agree with you that this particular pass was rushed and overly ambitious to meet a political deadline and it turned out as it often does into theater on both sides of the aisle.
To suggest as some do that the answer is just to leave things be and everything will turn out ok...if a doctor charges too much then just go see the next doctor down the road...is ridiculous.
Poor conservatives value religious policies over economic ones. They would rather lose jobs than allow gays to marry.
That's a ridiculous statement A majority of Californians vote for liberal Democrats (voted for Obama), but even so they voted against same-sex marriage. Also, with the state of the economy, survival has a priority in people's minds than same-sex marriage, and this goes for most Americans.
ray are you aware of the scare tactic commercials put on the air in california prior to that vote about same sex marriage? I saw some of it on youtube, it was pretty vicious.
Yes, the economy is job one. Now we can all be crying about the same thing instead of pet issues. We can be miserable together, or happy together. I know what I pick.
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in disbelief. I'm sure that same old woman thinks the health care reform is a "give away" for blacks, and it's gonna take a lot of time to change that stinking thinking. Those hard working people in WV, and everywhere in the USA, regardless of color, deserves to have medical care when they need it.
A majority of Californians vote for liberal Democrats (voted for Obama), but even so they voted against same-sex marriage. Also, with the state of the economy, survival has a priority in people's minds than same-sex marriage, and this goes for most Americans.
