Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I always find it interesting when discussing the abortion issue with prolifers, to find that most of them believe in the death penalty- so life is sacred only up to a point I guess-
You must not know many devout Catholics then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theliberalvoice
As stated before, I am referring to the conservatives who whine that liberals have abortions.
They NEVER reply when I ask them if they think conservatives have had abortions or not.
Of course the extremes on both side will have people who only attack, attack, attack the other side without regard to logic. Unfortunately, those who attack without reason drown out those who have genuine disagreement and would like to rationally discuss their differences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkb0305
I always wonder how many people are pro-life until they find themselves or perhaps their daughter faced with the decision.
Sarah Palin, for all the scorn heaped upon her, would count as truly pro-life. It's hard to tell others, though, because abortion and not getting pregnant are equally discrete.
I think an argument could be made that a larger number of people see abortion as morally wrong (in some large or small way) than the number of people who would never choose abortion under any circumstance. It doesn't mean that abortion is any more or less moral, only that humans are frail when it comes to making moral choices. People who think murder is morally wrong have committed murder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
I personally would like to see more of the religious folks offer to take an unwanted child and raise it, rather than confront the expectant mother on the sidewalk outside an abortion clinic and scream "Murderer!" in her face.
And I'm not talking about on an individual basis either. Why not on a collective, congregational basis? A lot of these mega churches and mega ministries are rolling in cash. Wouldn't that money be better spent running orphanages for unwanted children than on new suits and cars for the pastor?
I'm sure Scott Peterson had plenty of scorn heaped on him for murdering his wife, but I doubt anyone would have stepped up and offered to pay his debts, alimony, and child support had he merely left her.
I think churches should help support unwanted children, because one of their missions is to help the poor, not because they would be better able to oppose abortion.
The abortion debate will always be contentious because the two sides start from fundamentally different assumptions. The pro-life side thinks that abortion is a form of murder and fundamentally oppose it as other people would oppose legalized infanticide. The pro-choice sees it as a simple, personal medical procedure and oppose restrictions on it as others would oppose banning wart-removal. For the most part, arguing about it isn't going to change people's minds and the abortion debate will rage, because the argument is about the basic assumptions.
I am just creating this thread because I have been seeing some "pro lifers" crying about how these godless liberals have abortions and how liberals are just putting themselves into extinction. I just love it when "prolifers" post "I wish liberals would just perform late term abortions on themselves".
Whoa! Don't let your life loving "prolife" colors come out!!!
I know of TWO conservative women who had abortions and I am sure there are many many many more conservative women who have.
And no conservative EVER had an abortion, right? Only liberals.
Come on "prolifers". Admit it. Conservatives have abortions too.
Yep.
Out of the people in my family only one has had an abortion (although I do have one relatively distant relative who performed abortions in the 40s and 50s) and she is a conservative Catholic. I'm guessing it has more to do with her being a Catholic than a conservative since Catholics have raised hypocrisy to an art form, but it goes to show that the pro-choice side of my family is more pro-life in practice than the conservative side.
I am just creating this thread because I have been seeing some "pro lifers" crying about how these godless liberals have abortions and how liberals are just putting themselves into extinction. I just love it when "prolifers" post "I wish liberals would just perform late term abortions on themselves".
Whoa! Don't let your life loving "prolife" colors come out!!!
I know of TWO conservative women who had abortions and I am sure there are many many many more conservative women who have.
And no conservative EVER had an abortion, right? Only liberals.
Come on "prolifers". Admit it. Conservatives have abortions too.
I won't disagree with your assertion that conservative women also destroy their children, but the issue shouldn't be who has abortions (as though that would change the nature of the act). No child should be murdered because his or her mother has allowed herself to be corrupted by "pro-choice" propaganda. If people (include conservative pro-life women) could be trusted to do the right thing all the time, "choice" would be enough to protect the rights of others. But humans, to include conservatives, have the innate ability and tendency to rationalize (see Roe V. Wade). It's what separates us from other animals, is both a blessing and a curse and, furthermore, must be controlled to prevent us from destroying ourselves and others. Every time humans have been given the green light to exterminate another class of humans, officially sanctioned Orwellian group self-deception and rationalizing (see cognitive dissonance) was used to designate these other people as less than human. The issue of who is most capable of destroying an innocent child is irrelevant. We are all capable of that because we are all capable of rationalizing that a pre-born child is something other than a unique human being with the God-given right to life from the moment of conception.
I am just creating this thread because I have been seeing some "pro lifers" crying about how these godless liberals have abortions and how liberals are just putting themselves into extinction. I just love it when "prolifers" post "I wish liberals would just perform late term abortions on themselves".
Whoa! Don't let your life loving "prolife" colors come out!!!
I know of TWO conservative women who had abortions and I am sure there are many many many more conservative women who have.
And no conservative EVER had an abortion, right? Only liberals.
Come on "prolifers". Admit it. Conservatives have abortions too.
Shhhhh!!! No one's supposed to know that. Just like the conservatives that preach family values and then cheat on their spouse. Shhhh!!!
I am just creating this thread because I have been seeing some "pro lifers" crying about how these godless liberals have abortions and how liberals are just putting themselves into extinction. I just love it when "prolifers" post "I wish liberals would just perform late term abortions on themselves".
Whoa! Don't let your life loving "prolife" colors come out!!!
I know of TWO conservative women who had abortions and I am sure there are many many many more conservative women who have.
And no conservative EVER had an abortion, right? Only liberals.
Come on "prolifers". Admit it. Conservatives have abortions too.
I suspect that most of the women having abortions are lower-class blacks (the black abortion rate is much higher than the white abortion rate), lower- and middle-class whites who do not want to have a child despite not using precautions or their precautions failing, etc. Conservative or liberal does not have anything to do with it, though liberals may abort at higher rates than conservatives. "Devout" pro-lifers probably do not have as many abortions as women with marginal pro-life beliefs or pro-choice beliefs.
Politics, however, isn't the point. Life is. Whether "liberal" or "conservative", abortion is never okay, because it kills a living human being. I know many liberals up here in northern MN who are pro-life. Likewise, I know many (who may tend to be of a selfish persuasion) who are "socially liberal" but "fiscally conservative".
For me I could really careless if the person is right or left, rich or poor, black, white, green or blue. Abortion should be available BUT I don't like it being used as a form of birth control but there are times that it is needed.
I am a perfect example. Last year I got pregnant with my third child. It was a surprise I got pregnant while on the pill. M husband and I were shocked but happy. Well about 8 weeks in when I went for my first U/S there was no heartbeat, yet I did not miscarry. I had chose to wait 4 more weeks and still nothing but my body was acting as if I were pregnant. Moral of the story if abortion was illegal I would not have been able to have the D&C (abortion) I would have had to wait to abort naturally, which could have put my life in danger. I could have bleed to death and it would have been extremely painful.
Of course there are conservatives that have abortions but the real issues should be against the woman that use it as a means of birth control. Where is the outrage at that?
I think churches should help support unwanted children, because one of their missions is to help the poor, not because they would be better able to oppose abortion.
My suggestion doesn't have as much to do with opposing abortion as it does doing something more positive than screaming in women's faces and saying, "NO, NO, NO." Pointing fingers of condemnation doesn't help the pregnant woman who sees no other option than abortion, but offering to take the child and raise it would. What we in the church are doing now does nothing more than load more guilt onto women for no good reason.
Among the women I know who have had one, not a single one of them approached their abortions with a cavalier attitude. Each of them were morally distraught. They all knew it was something they shouldn't be doing, but their life circumstances at the moment left no other option. Yes, it's easy to say, "You should have kept your pants on," or "You should have been smarter than that," or "You're going to hell if you do that," but what good is cheap comments like that to a woman struggling to find her way out of her difficulties? None at all.
What she needs, REALLY needs, is another choice besides kill the baby or have a child she can't afford or can't raise. That's a pretty stark choice, one of black and white, so why can't churches and whole denominations give her a way out? Not only would that relieve her of the moral issues, it would preserve the life of the child, something pro-lifer's like to prattle on about.
But, sadly, I don't ever see that happening to any great degree because it would involve more than just sitting in self-righteous judgment, which seems to be the favorite passtime of most Believers.
I guarantee you Jesus wouldn't join the crowd marching outside the abortion clinic. He'd love those women, do what He could to help them and never, EVER condemn them.
Since we in the Chritian community are supposed be like Jesus, what would be wrong with doing that too?
All depends. For example, lets say that this guy is a proven serial killer. In this case, the death penalty for him is fine with me.
Another example: I see a legal bull moose while hunting, and I kill it. Since I hunt for meat (to consume it), I have no problems killing it.
Not so for abortion in my family in cases of unwanted pregnancies, however. In relation to your family members, i have no problems whatsoever, since you don't have to answer to me.
You have your family "answer to you."
Please expand on this.
Although you are, in a not uncommon occurence, off tiopc and attempting to hijack this thread, I'll bite and respond:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RayinAK
Who do you think is going to pay for Obama's spending? Are you assuming that Golden Sacs will return the bailout money to the American tax payers? Do you believe that they will stop their fat bonuses and return the money to us? How about GM, Chrysler, and their unions? Will these return the bailout money to the tax payers?
Started with Bush... or have you conveniently forgotten?
Some of the money has been paid back:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/bu...1taxpayer.html Nearly a year after the federal rescue of the nation’s biggest banks, taxpayers have begun seeing profits from the hundreds of billions of dollars in aid that many critics thought might never be seen again.
The profits, collected from eight of the biggest banks that have fully repaid their obligations to the government, come to about $4 billion, or the equivalent of about 15 percent annually, according to calculations compiled for The New York Times.
Ya know, you need to look to Bush for starting the bailouts: bush bailout money - Google Search
Bush wants OK to spend $700B Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
This article is about one division of an enacted statute. For the entire statute, see Public Law 110-343. For the enacted rescue program, see Troubled Assets Relief Program.
The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 (Division A of Pub.L. 110-343, enacted October 3, 2008), commonly referred to as a bailout of the U.S. financial system, is a law enacted in response to the subprime mortgage crisis authorizing the United States Secretary of the Treasury to spend up to US$700 billion to purchase distressed assets, especially mortgage-backed securities, and make capital injections into banks.[1] [2] Both foreign and domestic banks are included in the program. The Federal Reserve also extended help to American Express, whose bank-holding application it recently approved.[3] The Act was proposed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson during the global financial crisis of 2008.
Now back to the regularly scheduled thread.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Only liberals.
