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If a young woman wants to weigh 400 and have nine cats, it's her right but there is probably something wrong with her. Same with some greasy guy and his videogames and porn and misogynist attitude. Some of the things that are going on in society today are just skewed.
There probably is wrong with someone who doesn't care about their appearance, and that is punishment enough, isn't it? Most of us, if we are reasonably well-adjusted, will try to present ourselves well.
If we don't, or can't, we are struggling in some way. Instead of being told that we should want to improve ourselves for our own sake (which is often a struggle, because many women with appearance problems are that way due to self-esteem—they simply don't like themselves). Now women are being told that masses of nameless, faceless men (that we don't even know and might not even like if we did meet them) believe that we "owe" it to them to be more attractive, and if we fail them, then they are going to be mad at us, and possibly this will drive them to be violent!
There are a lot of people who fight with weight problems. They are going to be less "datable" because of this, no one is arguing that this is not the case, but is their personal struggle, and theirs alone. But now we're being told that it's a justifiable reason for men to be angry with them?
I don't smoke and don't find men who smoke to be "datable" to me. But I can't ever recall thinking that smoking men owed it to me (and all other women) to stop smoking. I always thought it was a personal matter and none of my business.
Now, regarding people who dress like slobs, dress trashy or tacky, they cannot expect to attract the cream of the crop when they choose to look like that. They're delusional if they complain when they're unable to do so.
I am not religious and don't think my view of women is very one-dimensional, but it is rather traditional and leans toward the idea that society needs women to be a civilizing force for men. I think women underestimate how much the typical male values traditional femininity and also how turbulent the minds of sexually frustrated young men often are. Yes, "there comes a point" where men have to control themselves, but even therapy didn't seem to much help Elliot Rodger with that and as he noted it's largely useless re doing better with women. (The typical therapist isn't nearly masculine enough or understanding of the modern dating scene for young people.)
My opinion isn't that women as a whole should cater to very frustrated men, but if most 'normal' men want women to act differently than they do (in a reasonable way, not sex on demand or something), then that's how women could help prevent more high-profile destructive male behavior.
Now, I can't agree with the "civilizing force" because men need to start that with themselves. Just watch what happens when I try to "civilize" the dozens of men who hawk up loogies on the sidewalk or near my NYC office. If you want that, I recommend lobbying for manners classes or supporting some movement where fathers commit to teaching their sons manners, because I think I've said it before: Women get told constantly, with the exception of some small nits, no man "changes" for a woman, and women have wasted years if not decades and made some very bad bets along the way in this area.
Well summed-up. And don't forget: if women suggest that men can have sex anytime by hanging around the bars until closing time and going with the women who are left, they scream bloody murder. They have to have "attractive" women for sex, not just any drunk. But women have "options" by doing the same. Women can get sex anytime by picking up the drunks at the local pub at 2 a.m.
Yeah, options for STD's and for being used without getting any sexual gratification at all.
The gist of it is that modern women don't seem to know how to behave (including look) around men, with the nicer girls largely avoiding or inaccessible to men and the others acting too much like men.
But you're still saying that straight women have to do all the work, either to make themselves more desirable or less undesirable. When do the men have to work on themselves? "Nicer girls", which usually means "shyer girls", have to be the better person and do the work for shy men. Never mind they're likely to simultaneously be ideal women for many of the men who are ignoring them and hanging back. Other men have also weighed in and told us it's not enough for us to have any old job either; a nurse is looked down upon (and all I can say to that is, if she's attractive I don't know why anyone would be snobby enough to care; the smart man would know that a nurse is a great bet for a wife, she's likely to be nurturing, good in a crisis, won't faint at the sight of blood, and will never be out of work); so these women start hanging back too (it isn't anything we haven't heard in New York City either, rents are so expensive everyone wants a wife also pulling down six figures, and that is a commodity that is also likely to have a finite end). This is hardly likely to make a beta female more outgoing, now she also has to worry about her salary and job title being acceptable in the bargain if she approaches someone. Men progressively want more and more out of women, we're just about approaching "the world", and then tell us they don't have to put anything into the mission.
"Be the man, but do it in a ladylike manner!" You want some type of demure restraint, but you simultaneously want that demurely restrained person to drape herself over the back of your chair at a bar and "hint" (in some way that you would find unmistakable enough to seal the deal, and not talk yourself out of with an internal monologue), that she wants you. Basically that would be to act contrary to her nature, and as I've mentioned before (I believe out loud but sometimes my browser quits on me before I get a post in), whenever nothing else can explain how a perfectly acceptable if not outright desirable woman doesn't get attention for years, some backdoor psychologist chimes in to warn women "don't act desperate! Desperation is a turnoff, you can't act like you want a relationship". Well, I've been told I have "a poker face", and when recounting my "attempts to end a disastrous date" to my friends and family, they've started laughing and said "well, of course WE would be able to tell that you're bored and irritated, but a stranger would never know that to look at you."
Shy women spend no less time second-guessing themselves and how people are reacting to them than shy men do. Expecting us to throw ourselves wholeheartedly into pursuit without being convinced we're making embarrassing shows of ourselves shrieking at the entire bar "I want HIM!", while you might be simultaneously thinking "Shoot, does that girl have a pulse?", is expecting us to act contrary to every natural inclination we possess.
This just might be the least insightful, longest, dumbest thread ever in City Data, and that's up against a huge amount of competition. The OP deserves mega-kudos for coming up with a completely moronic premise that generated 100's of equally ridiculous posts.
My opinion isn't that women as a whole should cater to very frustrated men, but if most 'normal' men want women to act differently than they do (in a reasonable way, not sex on demand or something), then that's how women could help prevent more high-profile destructive male behavior.
I simply don't understand this assumption, that by presenting more visually appealing options, the ... mentally ill violent man won't go crazy? Giving them a wider buffet of eye candy who still won't touch them with another woman's plumbing, won't do anything except increase their frustration. No kind of woman approached Elliot Rodger as far as I know, though I admit I didn't read the whole manifesto to see if he indicated he was turning away brunettes and redheads left and right I tend to doubt it. It would solve the problem if he only had something better to look at with regularity than the general overwhelmingly taut and tanned population of Orange County? Who all then continued to ignore him like the plague? That doesn't make sense.
This just might be the least insightful, longest, dumbest thread ever in City Data, and that's up against a huge amount of competition. The OP deserves mega-kudos for coming up with a completely moronic premise that generated 100's of equally ridiculous posts.
I have no idea why this thread has been allowed to continue for so long. It should have been locked down for it's stupidity and back-handed insults to male virgins.
I have no idea why this thread has been allowed to continue for so long. It should have been locked down for it's stupidity and back-handed insults to male virgins.
I don't think anyone is trying to insult male virgins. I think so many have responded to this thread because we know first hand that dating does not come easily to a multitude of people. The idea that women "owe" men dates is obviously not going to be accepted by women so we've been trying to explain that this mindset will get no one anywhere.
All that decent people owe others is to be nice. If a person smiles at you and says hello then the proper thing to do is smile and say hello back. Beyond that no one owes anyone a date whether it's male or female. No one should be rude or belittling to a person who asks them out if they are not interested. You just say no in a nice manner then that is all that is "owed" in that situation.
In all the talk on this thread about what society can do to help in these situations I would agree to one thing. Society could grow up where sex is concerned and stop presenting our youth with the idea that sex is all there is to life. I see a lot of people who are well into adulthood but still functioning as though they were back in junior high.
I don't think anyone is trying to insult male virgins. I think so many have responded to this thread because we know first hand that dating does not come easily to a multitude of people. The idea that women "owe" men dates is obviously not going to be accepted by women so we've been trying to explain that this mindset will get no one anywhere.
All that decent people owe others is to be nice. If a person smiles at you and says hello then the proper thing to do is smile and say hello back. Beyond that no one owes anyone a date whether it's male or female. No one should be rude or belittling to a person who asks them out if they are not interested. You just say no in a nice manner then that is all that is "owed" in that situation.
In all the talk on this thread about what society can do to help in these situations I would agree to one thing. Society could grow up where sex is concerned and stop presenting our youth with the idea that sex is all there is to life. I see a lot of people who are well into adulthood but still functioning as though they were back in junior high.
This this this, all of this.
Definitely, we should all be nice to each other and have some compassion when turning someone down.
In no way do I wish to insult male virgins. In fact I think being a virgin in today's society is a commendable thing, and hard to do with all the stigma and pressure. I know of some guys who are virgins by choice (moral or religious reasons) and I feel nothing but admiration. So much more admiration than the double-standard pig who does (or would if he could) tomcat around with any willing female, but is condemning and 'holier than thou' with a "loose" woman (the precise kind of woman he'd sleep with as he is "sowing his wild oats"). Such hypocrisy is contemptible.
If a guy is a virgin and is bitter and blaming women for it, then I'm not mocking his virginity, but will not feel sympathy for the blaming. Throughout history there have been men who were virgins well into adulthood, often because religious upbringing made it the "right" and "proper" thing to do. If these guys could survive their virginity, then it can still be done today. It's not fun, but blaming women for not making themselves available, not making themselves pretty enough or thin enough, is ludicrous.
Women get told constantly, with the exception of some small nits, no man "changes" for a woman
Small nit?
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If you want that, I recommend lobbying for manners classes or supporting some movement where fathers commit to teaching their sons manners, because I think I've said it before: Women get told constantly, with the exception of some small nits, no man "changes" for a woman, and women have wasted years if not decades and made some very bad bets along the way in this area.
So very true!
