Women's view of men and pornography (relations, reasons, fantasies, atheist)

[Vic 2.0]

Originally Posted by monumentus

Essentially it is. "Not entertaining the fantasy" is much the same as simply purging it from your head.

No. Again, you're saying that I advised people to "purge" thoughts of certain behaviors "just because" your partner will not do them. I said, once more, that if the behaviors are degrading or sexually risky, that is why and that is when you should "purge" thoughts of them from your mind.

Originally Posted by monumentus

You can withdraw whenever you wish. It has nothing to do with me. I reply when I can/want - and do not when I can not / do not want. Simple as. No one is forcing you to reply to my replies.

Obviously not. I was just explaining why I might withdraw from discussing this with you. When one person basically says "There is no right or wrong on this subject", what more is there to discuss? I posted links pointing to evidence that pornography is dangerous; that's good enough for me.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I said, once more, that if the behaviors are degrading or sexually risky, that is why and that is when you should "purge" thoughts of them from your mind.

Repeating your point over and over does not change mine. There is no reason to purge them at all no matter what they are. Because what goes on in your head and how you act in reality are two entirely different things. There is no reason to purge anything.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I was just explaining why I might withdraw from discussing this with you.

If you say so. I have been on forums long enough to have noticed that it is usually the ones who say they are done with a discussion who are most likely to continue it. So I take such rhetoric with way more than a simple pinch of salt these days.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

"There is no right or wrong on this subject", what more is there to discuss?

No idea. Ask someone who said such a thing. I never said it - nor implied it.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

I posted links pointing to evidence that pornography is dangerous; that's good enough for me.

If you say so but the posts/points I am replying to are not that one so not sure why this has anything to do with me.

[Vic 2.0]

FYI, I didn't say I was done with this discussion in general, just that I didn't think you and I could get anywhere, and we both know I'm right at least about that

Originally Posted by monumentus

If you say so but the posts/points I am replying to are not that one so not sure why this has anything to do with me.

It has to do with me telling you why I believe there is a right and a wrong (or a "should" or "should not", if you prefer) concerning what thoughts people should entertain (and what thoughts they should "purge", if you prefer) by watching or not watching pornography. Simple.

And just as I am not obligated to reply to your replies with a simple repetition of my argument, neither are you.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

FYI, I didn't say I was done with this discussion in general, just that I didn't think you and I could get anywhere, and we both know I'm right at least about that

If I thought like that I would not bother posting at all. I - however - am still posting which should tell you that no I do not "know" you are right. Quite the opposite.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

It has to do with me telling you why I believe there is a right and a wrong (or a "should" or "should not", if you prefer) concerning what thoughts people should entertain (and what thoughts they should "purge", if you prefer) by watching or not watching pornography. Simple.

Simplistic too. As I said there is a chasm of difference between what goes on in your head and what happens in the real world. Just because something going on in your head is something you would not / should not / could not do in reality does not mean it needs to be purged.

You seem to think the opposite. The basis for such an opinion however remains entirely opaque to me.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

And just as I am not obligated to reply to your replies with a simple repetition of my argument, neither are you.

I am well aware of my obligations - or lack of them. I do not need them read by you.

[Vic 2.0]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

FYI, I didn't say I was done with this discussion in general, just that I didn't think you and I could get anywhere, and we both know I'm right at least about that

Originally Posted by monumentus

If I thought like that I would not bother posting at all. I - however - am still posting which should tell you that no I do not "know" you are right. Quite the opposite.

Well then, let me convince you: I'm not budging on anything I've said here. Are you going to budge?

Originally Posted by monumentus

The basis for such an opinion however remains entirely opaque to me.

How is that possible? I've given you documentation of every claim I even thought about making against pornography. Here's a hint: That WAS the basis for my opinion! Truly it isn't that we don't understand each other's arguments. You can play dumb to that fact if you wish. It's just that we differ on values. You said yourself there is no "should" concerning what fantasies we entertain. I and my references disagree. What more can be done here?

[nearnorth]

Originally Posted by monumentus

Repeating your point over and over does not change mine.

Nor does it make his point any less wrong than it has been for the entire thread.

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

There is much evidence to suggest pornography is dangerous.

Maybe there is - but not in any of the links YOU gave it seems. Let us look at the first one.

Link 1

In this link they explored whether there was a correlation between porn use and attitudes of violence. Nothing in that suggests that the porn is actually causing or supporting those violent tendencies or opinions. Nothing at all.

If you explored a correlation between liking the color pink and liking the singer Beyonce then that might be interesting. To suggest however that liking pink is what is causing those people to like Beyonce would be entirely ridiculous. That is essentially what you are doing here however.

Take for example the sentence you quoted "such attitudes were found to correlate significantly higher with the use of sexually violent pornography". That in NO WAY supports your hypothesis. Correlation is NOT causation. It is just as likely that people with violent tendencies are thus attracted to violent pornography. That violent pornography causes or supports the violent tendencies is wholly assumption on your part.

For example people who are lonely and depressed tend to gravitate towards alcohol and thus become alcoholics and dependents on alcohol. Someone with your level of "reasoning" might come along and notice a correlation between alochol and lonlieness and depression and just declare - based on nothing but already held biases against alcohol - that it was the former causing the latter.

Link 2

There is a glaring hole in this link that it is embarrasing to even have to point out. The agression tests which were masquerading as ESP tests were only done AFTER the pornography exposure. Not before. Therefore there is no useful control here. There is no way to tell - for example - that the people showing higher agression were not that way BEFORE the porn exposure. Again this is wholly assumed.

They also did a "Likliehood to rape" test on the same subjects which you convieniently did not quote at all. Let me do it for you:

Results revealed no significance for the exposure variable
nor any interaction. However, the pre-LR factor did achieve significance, F (1,37) = 9.43, p <
.004. This effect simply reflects a consistency in subjects' LR ratings despite the intervening
exposures to pornographic stimuli

Hardly supports your contention that porn is dangerous does it? They then go on to say:

With respect to exposure effects, the results did not reveal that repeated exposure to violent or
nonviolent pornography had any significant effect on laboratory aggression against women.

Again you will fogive me my wry smile at how you convientiently left the above out of your cherry picked quote mining operation. The best these authors could come up with to explain this lack of effect was to suggest:

It may be that exposure to violent pornography might have an immediate impact on aggressive behavior against women but this effect may dissipate quickly over time.

Again - terribly convientient of you to leave that out son.

[Vic 2.0]

Originally Posted by nearnorth

Nor does it make his point any less wrong than it has been for the entire thread.

Now I'm "wrong"? Pray tell, how did you come to that conclusion?

No, repetition cannot lend credibility to a thing. Research, however, is another story

[monumentus]

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Are yougoing to budge?

Not unless you actually manage to support your position somehow. I _always_ budge in the face of compelling arguments and evidence.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

You can play dumb to that fact if you wish. It's just that we differ on values. You said yourself there is no "should" concerning what fantasies we entertain. I and my references disagree. What more can be done here?

As I showed above your references do not support much of what you are saying at all. So it is not about me "playing dumb" and all about your arguments being poor to non existent.

There is simply no reason I know of - certainly none coming from you - to suggest that there is any reason why we should not entertain ideas and scenarious in our fantasy world that we would not - could not - or even should not engage in in reality.

You clearly think there is but - as I said - the reasoning behind that repeatedly asserted opinion is not forthcoming.

Originally Posted by Vic 2.0

Research, however, is another story

Yes. But not quote mined or mis-represented research. That just makes you look even worse than having provided no citations at all.

[Vic 2.0]

Read on, monumentus. There is research to suggest a link between exposure to pornography and the tendency to commit sexual offenses, as well as a host of other harms. Here, I'll re-post for you:

"A meta-analysis of 46 published research studies on the effects of pornography on sexual perpetration, attitudes regarding intimate relationships, and attitudes regarding the rape myth found that exposure to pornographic material puts one at increased risk for committing sexual offenses, experiencing difficulties in one’s intimate relationships, and accepting rape myths (i.e. beliefs that trivialize rape or blame the victim for the crime). Specifically, there is a 22% increase in sexual perpetration; a 20% increase in negative intimate relationships; and a 31% increase in believing rape myths. A total sample size of 12,323 people comprised the present meta-analysis. The studies confirmed the link between increased risk for negative development when exposed to pornography."

http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/pdf/ResearchOnPornography.pdf

If you want to delve deeper into this meta-analysis, I'll make it easy for you:

http://ccoso.org/library%20articles/Meta-analysis.pdf

There is also research (cited in the post you - what's the word you used? Oh yeah, cherrypicked) that indicates trivialization of rape (giving convicted rapists shorter sentences after exposure to pornography). That alone is dangerous. As you dismiss the other links, don't forget to dismiss that one. Oh, and all of the following findings as well.

There was also documentation on pornographic material's effect of an increased interest in violent porn and less commonly practiced sexual activities including those involving the infliction of pain, a decreased satisfaction with one's sexual partner, with the partner's sexuality, with the partner's sexual curiosity, a decrease in the valuation of faithfulness, and a major increase in the importance of sex without attachment.