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I can see you are not. It is always best to look at each person separately. This is something everybody should try to do. However it is human nature for our thoughts to be the sum of our experiences. This is why so many people who have abusive childhoods end up abusers or being abused. When things happen enough it becomes the "normal" for that person. Not saying it is correct or right. Obviously seeing abuse as normal is a skewed perception. I am saying this is just how the human nature works. It is conditioning.
Of course. It is good to remember the humanity here but on the other hand maybe consider what it is people seek when they come here? Some seek to vent their spleen and take their frustrations out on others. Somebody else (or maybe you?) talked about this earlier where it becomes obvious who they are and how we should take their words with a grain of salt and "consider the source." However some seek unvarnished opinion and sincerely want to know what others really think. You seem to be in the latter group to me. I mean no offense by my words here. I only wish to give honest thoughts to honest questions even if sometimes it is not the happiest answer. At least you know that when I give a happy answer I am not "blowing sunshine."
I do not understand this. Here is what Homina asked:
I do not believe Homina was asking mere yes/no questions. It is only natural and courteous for people to give some reasons for their answers. I say with conditions that yes the narrative is often that older men's sexuality is portrayed (and seen) as sort of gross and perverted and like Moonbeam I give reasons why that may be so. Some of those reasons are trials and tribulations of women because enough of those trials and tribulations were foist upon enough young women by enough older men for it to result in a stereotype, generalization, or reputation, however unwarranted it may be for individuals within a demographic.
How boring and useless a forum would be if everybody just said "yes" or "no" like some robot. If yes or no is all there is just make a poll.
It was me who made the "consider the source" comment. As far as unvarnished opinions are concerned, there's a way to state an opinion, even a strong one, without trashing people who hold an opposite opinion, or those who possess characteristics you find unattractive. Probably two years ago a woman had recently cut her hair and she asked for feedback here and posted a picture. Responses from men and women ran the gamut you'd expect, but a couple of guys were viciously negative about short hair on women. Again, as if the thread wasn't about a real person who now has short hair asking the question, and as if many women reading the thread likely have short hair. The author of the thread seemed to take it in stride, but it was really kind of cruel. Sure, people making those comments identify themselves as crappy people, but they could just announce that without dragging someone else into their confession.
That's one example of something that happens here (everywhere) frequently, but it stuck with me. I commented in that thread, and I think it's the only time here I've offered an opinion on a woman's appearance out of the 1700 + comments I've made.
I am an older guy, these threads sometimes are tough to read. I can't help my age. I also read the thread about not dating widowers, I am a widower, I lost a perfect wife.
I am aware of the creepy old guy business. At the gym I keep my eyes down. I was a certified trainer and I used to regularly work with people and help them with their routines and form and exercises. Just being friendly. In the gym, I am in my element. Not any more. That knowledge is useless to anyone but me because I feel like sort of an outcast at this age.
I loved sex, with my wife. That is gone and I sort of shut down when she passed. Maybe its doesn't come back and I am spared all the heartache and abuse of trying to find another mate. I am not some kind of creep or pervert. I am just an older lonely guy who never planned to be alone and never planned to be so heartbroken.
I think I understand what the Op was trying to say. We don't all fit into the boxes with little yellow labels. It is not easy for either sex. At any age.
Depending on which thread somebody reads, it could be painful for anybody if they belong to the group being discussed.
I think it is more painful the more shocking it is to the reader. I also think it is more shocking to men to confront their age and by extension their diminishing sexual attractiveness than it is for women. In a sad way women are prepared by society to brace for an "expiration date" because of all the messages we get about looking young so we come to see old as bad, even though old is not bad. We also have physical signs with perimenopause that come on over time that don't allow us to deny too much to ourselves.
Men not so much. Men are told they only get better with age even though this is generally not the reality of it from the perspective of women, especially the younger women, so when a younger woman turns an older man away and hisses "CREEP" at him the man is genuinely taken aback. Physically maybe it seems more sudden to men, too. How is the story? The day a son beats a father in a sport in earnest is the most shocking day of both of their lives? How about the first time a middle-aged man is in bed with a partner and cannot raise the flag?
Maybe I'm not saying this right. My point is women often have it on their minds for a long time and it comes on slowly, but for men it can be a definitive event that can be an unwelcome and devastating wake-up call that seems to come out of nowhere.
Now we have the internet where we can get all the shocking we need. We can all come here to find out that we are not everybody's cup of tea no matter what. I do not think it wise to take it so personally. The truth is no matter who and what we are, somebody will find us unattractive. The good news is that no matter who and what we are, somebody else will have a fetish for us.
I don't think he was asking a "yes/no" question either.
My comment was in regard to what I see on this thread as justification for these attitudes. That, somehow, it's ok to be outwardly judgmental about certain people or relationship types because.... ?
Would this be an acceptable attitude toward any other demographic?
I do not think anyone here is saying it is okay to be judgmental about any group for any reason.
Also it seems to me Homina was asking what is and not what should be. Quite often the two are not the same thing. We cannot go about changing wrongs or bad perceptions in society without first acknowledging that those perceptions exist and the reasons why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
It was me who made the "consider the source" comment. As far as unvarnished opinions are concerned, there's a way to state an opinion, even a strong one, without trashing people who hold an opposite opinion, or those who possess characteristics you find unattractive. Probably two years ago a woman had recently cut her hair and she asked for feedback here and posted a picture. Responses from men and women ran the gamut you'd expect, but a couple of guys were viciously negative about short hair on women. Again, as if the thread wasn't about a real person who now has short hair asking the question, and as if many women reading the thread likely have short hair. The author of the thread seemed to take it in stride, but it was really kind of cruel. Sure, people making those comments identify themselves as crappy people, but they could just announce that without dragging someone else into their confession.
That's one example of something that happens here (everywhere) frequently, but it stuck with me. I commented in that thread, and I think it's the only time here I've offered an opinion on a woman's appearance out of the 1700 + comments I've made.
I do not disagree. However I try not to let what people on the internet say get to me too much. I also do not solicit opinions if I do not think I can handle some blunt comments. If I am so fragile that a stranger's comment about my hair would ruin my day, I don't really belong on an internet forum.
Also it seems to me Homina was asking what is and not what should be. Quite often the two are not the same thing. We cannot go about changing wrongs or bad perceptions in society without first acknowledging that those perceptions exist and the reasons why.
It's obvious that we're seeing this from two radically different perspectives.
As someone who is involved with an older guy, I've been witness to the "scoffing" (as you so aptly put it). And, as I think about it, I wouldn't really give it much thought if it weren't for the fact that so many of these "scoffers" wouldn't think about being so vocal about their judgments about other types of relationships. So, yes, when I see what I view as justification and rationalization for this behavior, it ticks me off. I don't suffer hypocrites well.
Depending on which thread somebody reads, it could be painful for anybody if they belong to the group being discussed.
I think it is more painful the more shocking it is to the reader. I also think it is more shocking to men to confront their age and by extension their diminishing sexual attractiveness than it is for women.In a sad way women are prepared by society to brace for an "expiration date" because of all the messages we get about looking young so we come to see old as bad, even though old is not bad. We also have physical signs with perimenopause that come on over time that don't allow us to deny too much to ourselves.
Men not so much. Men are told they only get better with age even though this is generally not the reality of it from the perspective of women, especially the younger women, so when a younger woman turns an older man away and hisses "CREEP" at him the man is genuinely taken aback. Physically maybe it seems more sudden to men, too. How is the story? The day a son beats a father in a sport in earnest is the most shocking day of both of their lives? How about the first time a middle-aged man is in bed with a partner and cannot raise the flag?
Maybe I'm not saying this right. My point is women often have it on their minds for a long time and it comes on slowly, but for men it can be a definitive event that can be an unwelcome and devastating wake-up call that seems to come out of nowhere.
Now we have the internet where we can get all the shocking we need. We can all come here to find out that we are not everybody's cup of tea no matter what. I do not think it wise to take it so personally. The truth is no matter who and what we are, somebody will find us unattractive. The good news is that no matter who and what we are, somebody else will have a fetish for us.
I've often wondered about this as it applies to self identified not conventionally attractive younger people here. It seems that this weighs on more men than women, and I've always wondered if that might be because women have had to make peace with this from an earlier age.
I just want to add that while aging and being in a demographic that is thought less attractive surely means something to me, it doesn't mean much practically. I'm in a stable (hopefully) relationship with a woman who is a bit older than me. I'm not looking to date anyone, including someone significantly younger. If women don't pay any attention to me, I'm fine, but I get attention from time to time. I may be said if or when that ends, but it's not my point.
I think there's an underlying belief that older men should be kindly and essentially asexual. And when we're not, it runs against that idea and it leads to people labeling us as something like perverted. Even when the object of our desire is our age. I think it makes some people, men and women, uncomfortable. I'm good with leveling a loud "**** you and your discomfort with my life" at such people, but that only feels good for a few seconds. It's also the cavalier way people sometimes talk about this stuff as if their comments weren't heard or read by people with ears, eyes, feelings, and yeah, libidos.
And this may ring false, but while I care about this as it relates to me, I also care about it as it relates to men in general. Old and young. I really think we aren't expected to have a full range of emotions, which is a topic for another thread, but that's been a life long experience.
It's obvious that we're seeing this from two radically different perspectives.
As someone who is involved with an older guy, I've been witness to the "scoffing" (as you so aptly put it). And, as I think about it, I wouldn't really give it much thought if it weren't for the fact that so many of these "scoffers" wouldn't think about being so vocal about their judgments about other types of relationships. So, yes, when I see what I view as justification and rationalization for this behavior, it ticks me off. I don't suffer hypocrites well.
You don't like the way some people (women) are replying or responding, calling it justification or rationalization for their opinion. You don't think their stories are relevant to the topic because this is about Homina and his feelings.
Is this an accurate summary of some of your opinion?
Do you see how you have just rationalized and justified your opinion by telling us a little about your own story and justifying your attitude by using this as an example?
Some times we don't see ourselves in the people whose behavior we don't like.
It isn't just on the internet either, people are judgmental in real life right to our faces every day, they aren't afraid they're going to get punched for giving an opinion on something that's none of their business.
I just got a neg rep right now about a conversation I was having with a male poster, something about why don't I "move in with him", or they hope I "can keep him warm". I've gotten those before, and in a thread, insulted or called Asshat, pompous ass, prepubescent, etc. It's not all the same person, it's people in general, but I can't let their comments or judgement make any difference in how i feel about myself, unless of course I think it's true...?
I've often wondered about this as it applies to self identified not conventionally attractive younger people here. It seems that this weighs on more men than women, and I've always wondered if that might be because women have had to make peace with this from an earlier age.
I just want to add that while aging and being in a demographic that is thought less attractive surely means something to me, it doesn't mean much practically. I'm in a stable (hopefully) relationship with a woman who is a bit older than me. I'm not looking to date anyone, including someone significantly younger. If women don't pay any attention to me, I'm fine, but I get attention from time to time. I may be said if or when that ends, but it's not my point.
I think there's an underlying belief that older men should be kindly and essentially asexual. And when we're not, it runs against that idea and it leads to people labeling us as something like perverted. Even when the object of our desire is our age. I think it makes some people, men and women, uncomfortable. I'm good with leveling a loud "**** you and your discomfort with my life" at such people, but that only feels good for a few seconds. It's also the cavalier way people sometimes talk about this stuff as if their comments weren't heard or read by people with ears, eyes, feelings, and yeah, libidos.
And this may ring false, but while I care about this as it relates to me, I also care about it as it relates to men in general. Old and young. I really think we aren't expected to have a full range of emotions, which is a topic for another thread, but that's been a life long experience.
Why do you think most people who undergo plastic surgery are women? Our species values youth and physical appearance very highly. We may evolve to the point where that is the only attribute we value. Who knows? I will be long dead before that.
I have never held our species in high regard, but I do find us fascinating. We're like a bunch of children that cannot grow up.
Yep. My best friend married a guy 20 years her junior when she was 40. Her mother-in-law is six years older than she is. I posted about it. The comments were...fairly scornful.
I often join or start discussions here to clarify my own thoughts. I need to sleep on a couple of those thoughts. First, while I dismiss the crap that a lot of men say about older women, because I don't agree with it, that doesn't mean that women don't hear it. Second, people commenting about older men are often pushing back against some specific hostile comment a man or men have made, or maybe the general idea that men are hostile toward women, which is somewhat supportable.
Thinking is hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
Yep. My best friend married a guy 20 years her junior when she was 40. Her mother-in-law is six years older than she is. I posted about it. The comments were...fairly scornful.
Flip the sexes, and it'd be, "High five, stud!"
Like I said above, I think that since I may dismiss some of the comments as asinine, I probably underestimate their impact or even frequency. Especially given the text of this thread, I should have made a more clear statement that the negatives are there and can be just as rude and unhelpful as it is when an older man is so treated.
As far as the reverse getting high fives, I really don't see that but rarely. There are a few men who go on and on about women having expiration dates, but those guys are few and far between and some of them may be the same person posting under a new name after being banned or embarrassed or both.
If a 40 year old man married a 20 year old woman and posted about it here, I think there's be a response, but I don't think it would be high fives. And I don't think it should be. Were you really surprised that a 40 year old marrying a 20 year old raised eyebrows? Do I have that right? A 20 year age gap is a lot when you're talking 35-55, but in that case the 35 year old is fully formed emotionally and neurologically. It's an eternity to a 20 year old, who isn't done developing. I would feel the same if the man was 40, and for the same reasons.
It is ultimately none of my business, but when people post something for discussion, then discussion happens.
Yep. My best friend married a guy 20 years her junior when she was 40. Her mother-in-law is six years older than she is. I posted about it. The comments were...fairly scornful.
Flip the sexes, and it'd be, "High five, stud!"
I have the same reaction either way (older woman or older man), but yeah .... men tend to support other men with any sort of 'sexual conquest'. I wonder how much of the bravado is real and how much is ... well bravado.
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It is always best to look at each person separately. This is something everybody should try to do. However it is human nature for our thoughts to be the sum of our experiences. This is why so many people who have abusive childhoods end up abusers or being abused. When things happen enough it becomes the "normal" for that person. Not saying it is correct or right. Obviously seeing abuse as normal is a skewed perception. I am saying this is just how the human nature works. It is conditioning. 
