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Right, I'm wondering that since the "creepy old men" are in Homina's peer group (rather than an abstract concept or referring to men much older than he is) if the designation is hitting him where it hurts.
I think this is part of it. I've aged into a club with a pretty sketchy reputation. I know I'm not responsible for the reputation, but the reputation is there and sometimes it has to be lived down. That's a little dramatic, but it's close to how I feel, and I think the loose way we talk about men my age perpetuates this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43
I'm trying to think of the last time I called an old guy creepy. All I could think of was I thought it this weekend, as my husband pointed out the 70 year old guy who left his wife and kids for a 14 year old filipina a decade ago. I stand by that.
Homina has never come across as creepy, unless he is way different in person.
I appreciate that, and like I said above I really don't believe that I'm creepy or that anyone has reason to believe that I am. Unless birth certificate + libido = reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seija
I think Moonbeam had a good answer. Where there is power, there are people who will abuse that power. Women as equals is a relatively new thing in terms of human history. Historically so much of a woman's fate was bound to a man, and men wanted women who could assure them of a lineage. If this meant a 45-year-old man married a 14-year-old girl, this is what happened.
Both sexes are capable of predatory behavior. However I think men are more often the perpetrator because they are more often the ones in the position of power or wealth to prey upon someone. It is not right for either gender to do it. Whether we like it or not, when there are obvious significant age differences between partners (more than 10 years), people will make assumptions and judgments. Sometimes those judgments are correct. The older person takes advantage of the younger person's ignorance about things like money, opportunity, negotiations (ie, buying homes, cars, etc.), both to control the younger person and to appear worldly and impressive to the younger person. This is why when a 50-year-old dates a 25-year-old people scoff and say things like "because people his/her own age see right through his/her nonsense."
As for sexuality there is a difference between being assertive or putting effort into wooing someone and being an aggressive, disrespectful pig like the men Moonbeam mentions who send gross, cheap pictures to women. Men joke and say they wish women would send pictures like that to them but all this really means is that the men who do this are so far up their own behinds with what they want that they think everyone wants what they want (gross, cheap pictures). They cannot see past their own way of doing things or seeing the world, which is a problem with boundaries and entitlement. They see women as objects so they objectify themselves with their gross, cheap pictures of their anatomy. They see women as cheap, and they want cheap, so they cheapen themselves and present themselves as a D, quite literally. This is actually pretty sad when I think of it. Is his penis all he has to offer a woman? What a shame. However women do not do things or see the world the way men do, particularly when it comes to sexual things. Some men do not quite understand this so they force their way onto women, and it seems that older men feel more emboldened to do it to younger women who they assume do not have the wits to realize that this is NOT appropriate behavior.
In past generations women were conditioned to accommodate the male way of it, as though the male way is the first or right way and the woman's way is the second or alternative way. Fortunately this has been changing with each generation, which is why so many women go their own way now. Marriage and lifelong commitment is not the way anymore. It is A way, but not THE way and if a man does not "bring more to the table" than money well then sorry but that is not enough. He must be of good character, and men of good character do not disrespect boundaries or treat women like objects. They simply do not. Women no longer need a man for a home and necessities so there is no reason to put up with having the male version of sexuality forced upon them at any age.
I must also add that when I was 20 back in the 80s yes 40 was a dirty old man.
As with Moonbeam's post, you've done an excellent job of laying out the kind of behavior that makes many women wary of men. My point is that I'm not those men. I'm quite deliberately not those men. I understand that people often can't distinguish individuals from the groups they belong to, or they're not willing to, but in this case that awareness doesn't help a lot.
I live my life without a lot of concern about this, but I'd be lying if I said my concern was entirely academic.
I'm pretty new here & have only been reading for a few weeks before joining, so my perspective may be very different. Selja said the hard stuff & ITA with it, but also with that bit of humor at the end, paraphrased 'when I was 20, 40 was a dirty old man'. I've noticed myself feeling a bit that way.
The thing I've noticed here more than what OP has brought into question is a reluctance to believe or gross-out-factor, that anyone over 35 has sex, period. Of either gender. I have seen multiple references that show incredulity that 60 yo's have sex or even CAN have sex. For me, I think that I'm somewhat sensitive to it, simply b/c I'm not normally exposed to this attitude & it struck me as odd. After considering it for a bit, I realized that in my real life, I'm surrounded mainly by people my own age, give or take 10 years, so they all know that a healthy sex life is common even in the 70's & beyond. But suddenly, I've placed myself in a forum with a bunch of much younger people than I normally socialize with & when I was in my 20's, I wouldn't have believed that most 50 yo's had satisfying sex lives, so natch, they think that of us. Plus I admit to being shocked not all that long ago, when the wife of an ill friend well into his 80's passed & she told me, "he still liked his nookie every day" :-) So there ya go, at 50, I think the 80 yo is a "dirty old man". There is definitely more of a bias towards older men/younger women in society, but I think it's slowly being equaled by the 'cougar' stereotype. Another thing this forum has made me realize, due to all the questions abt large age discrepancies, is that it's not so much about the ages, as it is, the stage of life. 50 yo & 65 yo, with either gender being older, no big deal either way. 20 & 35 yo, bigger deal. Not insurmountable, but a bigger deal.
Not to derail your original question OP, I think what I've noticed is a tangental topic & like you queried, I think I notice it, b/c I'm now one in that situation, so the comments hit home more, if that makes sense.
Not a derailment at all. Some of my lament is about age bias generally. Then there's the extra squicky aspect when sex enters (he he) the discussion. Then old guy sex and the squick jumps a level.
People make judgments all the time. It's part of the nature of being human.
Where the issue comes in, at least for me, is when people lose the ability to keep their judgments to themselves, and even worse, try to defend their dismissal of other people's relationships.
And across a whole spectrum of topics people share opinions they have to know could be thorny jabs at real people reading as if there were no real people reading who might be so jabbed. This goes way beyond age or sex or relationship demographics.
And across a whole spectrum of topics people share opinions they have to know could be thorny jabs at real people reading as if there were no real people reading who might be so jabbed. This goes way beyond age or sex or relationship demographics.
Yes, it does.
And, in the "quite disappointing, yet not at all surprising" category, I also put the responses on this thread which pull the conversation toward the trials and tribulations of women. While, of course, these discussions have merit, are they really an appropriate response to a man telling of his feelings about being a man? To me, this is symptomatic of a much larger problem in our current society- the apparent inability to actually listen when people are talking.
And, in the "quite disappointing, yet not at all surprising" category, I also put the responses on this thread which pull the conversation toward the trials and tribulations of women. While, of course, these discussions have merit, are they really an appropriate response to a man telling of his feelings about being a man? To me, this is symptomatic of a much larger problem in our current society- the apparent inability to actually listen when people are talking.
Not listening?
The OP brought up women and directly compared the male and female experience, and it would be difficult to discuss heterosexual relations without referring to the trials and tribulations of women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by homina12
Older men's sexuality relates to men's sexuality in general, and men's sexuality isn't spoken of too highly. It's sometimes spoken of as predatory or primitive, and it's sometimes spoken of as a joke. It seems the opportunity for jokes proliferate when the man in question is older, and a lecherous, unclean aspect joins the narrative. Creepy old man seems kind of redundant, with "creepy" being well implied.
It also relates to older women's sexuality. Nobody over 45 or so gets out of these discussions unscathed. I notice two differences, though. When older women are disparaged, thoughtful women and men often offer support and counter arguments. When older women talk about their sexuality, other women often support them, even when those older women are knocking older men. The nasty comments about older women are usually from drive by posters or men here who have earned reputations as a$$holes. They're ugly comments, but the sources are duly noted.
When older man/younger woman relationships are discussed, the support seems to be more tepid. It's pretty strong from women in such relationships, but beyond that it's non existent or in the form of "whatever works for you". And some of the crappy comments about older men are from women, many older themselves, who are generally thoughtful and deliberate in their comments here.
As far as age gaps, I'm in a happy relationship with a woman who is a few years older than me. I'm not advocating for older men/younger women relationships, but the way they're discussed here seems to tap into something.
Does anyone believe that men's sexuality, for all the attention it's paid in terms of women constantly on display, is kind of corrupt somehow? Does anyone else believe that older men'as sexuality is portrayed as beyond corrupt, and sort of gross and perverted? Whether you believe that or not, do you see that narrative here?
I ask because I do see it, but I'd just as soon someone convince me that I'm wrong, because it's a pretty discouraging conclusion to have arrived at.
The OP brought up women and directly compared the male and female experience, and it would be difficult to discuss heterosexual relations without referring to the trials and tribulations of women.
Yes, of course.
I guess I was looking more at the overall topic (talking about older men's sexuality), and not just one line from the OP's posting.
I personally see a lot of the comments here as quite dismissive of the issue, but as I said, it's not at all surprising to me.
That may be true of you or your community/frame of reference/ etc...
but it's far too broad a brush to paint all with.
fwiw I'm sure I'm a fair bit older than you
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The other factor if it wasn't made clear is the age range where it's all happening.
Like it or not... when an older woman (50+?) seeks out younger men... it's assumed to be about sexual performance issues.
I'd say it's a safe bet to call that the case in at least 80-90% of such instances
I did say IMO, bc it's my opinion for various reasons based on what has been experienced by me.
Also, women aren't necessarily 'going after' younger men. Anyway: it's amusing when a guy explains to me what women my age are thinking and doing 80-90℅ of the time, so I can understand myself, but my opinion is a 'broad brush'.
Too funny.
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