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I call bs on this. It just sounds like someone with an axe to grind against feminists has made this up to exorcise his antipathy.
I have my own problems with doctrinaire feminists (mainly that they are usually bloody big hypocrites), but I have never, ever seen any situation like what the OP describes and I have been around a lot of leftwing female activists in my life.
Thats not true. I never compliment her on features that oppress her. I never reinforce male chauvinism and her subordinate position. I never compliment her as a piece of meat. I have no problem praising her as a human and as a friend.
Because you so conveniently think that a 'new woman' doesn't want to be seen as a piece of meat once in a while, because, us 'new women' do not lust or want to be found sexy or desired or lusted after. Praising her as a human and a friend makes her equal with...hmm...pretty much most people you talk too. She's your wife, you're supposed to see her as a woman FIRST...and then the friend, human part.
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Monogamy has been historically on for women, there has always been open marriage for men. Look at all the tragedies that result from the jealousy of men. This is to let her know that I do not posses her like property. My proposal was not so that I could sleep with other women, but so she would know that I would not have any jealous feelings toward her.
Monogamy has been...women have been....what do you care of what was? Back in the day women weren't allowed to read, leave the house alone, ride horses other than sidesaddle and much more. Virtuous women were also supposed to deny they liked sex, because it was improper, and do it only when they wanted a child. People also drove around in carriages, wore funny white wiggs and thought the planet was square. They were shocked when they found out the earth was round and spun around.
As to why it was normal for men and not women to sleep around outside the marriage...well....no offence but there weren't lotsa condoms and birthcontrol back then. What man would have liked to raise his wives children conceived with all her lovers? Moreover, how could they really tell if the children were theirs or not? Still, that didn't stop women from cheating, despite the risk of shame, abandonment and sometimes even being beheaded . Didn't stop women from having a husband that took care of them and a more powerful lover that took care of them even more (making sure if their husband objected, he'd be kept in control) and on top of that, probably even a young lover strictly for the passion of it and making them feel beautiful and womanly (usually kept a huge secret).Oh, poor poor women.
What you are saying is, you have no problem with her sleeping with other men, yet you feel like you have to give her the permission to do so. It would be normal for you, as a man, but obviously not for her...as a woman, which is why she needs to know that she's ALLOWED to. And who else to allow it but you, since you're in charge. Which obviously is a sort of control. And while you have no problem with her sleeping with other men, you're bothered by her buying sexy underwear and trying to be a hot woman for you....
Let me bold this for you too. A happy marriage, a fair, equal, modern marriage, involves you talking this over with your wife. You asking her...hey honey...what do you like and dislike about our marriage? Do you like/dislike being seen as a piece of meat, cooking, cleaning, (insert name of other activity you have doubts about here). And respecting her answers, whatever they may be.
The title is bs too. Have you done enough to turn her? YOU? Re-read all your posts, it's all about you. I completely agree with stanman's post. And it's you that has to change. You're at the moment seing her as if she's your child and you're educating her, when in fact she's a woman and an adult, with equal rights and an equal mind. If you think that any woman would be bothered by hearing her husband saying 'hey baby, you have a really sexy butt...' then you must be out of your mind .
I apologize for the long post but this is unbelievable.
When I say "allow", I don't mean anything sinister. I just speak negatively about the aspects of her feminine beauty that all her life, men have been speaking of positively.
Do you think it is healthy that her whole life her sense of accomplishment came from compliments about her appearance and cute personality?
There is a culture in Saudi Arabia where women cover their "natural beauty" from head to toe so men don't look, notice, heckle, or whatever. It's a religious decision to cover themselves.
Seeing how you live in California, and she is not "foreign born", that means you two are Americans.
This also means freedom of speech, style, opinion, and choices. Freedom of religion, and freedom to go political. I think you two are quite young in your life experiences, and I also think you have picked quite a soapbox to challenge the way some people view women in society, being a man and taking women's studies, for that I applaud you.
However, you have to understand something Marius. When she gets older, her "looks" may fade. Her breasts are going to sag, her figure isn't going to be the same. If she enjoys her life and has self esteem from whatever, that's her business. Unless she's a test tube case for anti-media brainwashing, its her decision to learn how to filter all of that nonsense out and focus on what her goals and attributes are. It is her journey in life to discover what to be proud of.
If she's proud to be drop dead gorgeous, who cares? By trying to control where her self esteem comes from this rigidly, you are going to mentally jack this poor woman into depression, then we'll be reading a thread, "Did I shove my wife over the edge enough into being a person she's not, to fit my bill of equal rights?"
She probably hasn't lived on this planet long enough to even know who she really is yet, let alone you trying to shape her into what you want her to be.
Is the New Woman independent? Is the New Woman in charge of her life? Is the New Woman happy doing what she pleases? Honestly, I think some day she will walk out on you because she will realize how trivial these things are in a life built so short. She will seek happiness in her own way, and that will have to exclude your toxic soapboxes that spin you into these debates.
Take any stand you want, take any career you want, but let your wife live her life how she wants to. And accept her for who she is. If you friggin can't do this, then you be the MAN with Balls and walk out leaving her to find some friggin happiness!!
So its not "nice" of me that, I don't encourage my wife to view herself as a piece of meat, but instead encourage her to develop herself to her full capacity as a human.
Encourage anything you want if you're not hurting her. She will do what she wants to do. She will learn things in life that are meant for her to learn, not you.
Go live your own life. Let your wife live hers. If she's not passionate about her feministic views enough to tell a guy on the street to F off when he whistles at her, that's her choice.
America: we make our choices as part of our freedom here.
You can't force someone to "develop themselves to their full capacity". You have no idea what her full capacity is. I hope someday she really shows you what that is, and your hair turns white and you speed out of the room so fast before she can show you a second time.
How young are you two anyways? Why don't you let life happen and try to enjoy living and the learning that comes with living naturally. What the frick is your hurry here?
Are you developed in your full capacity? Has your wife gone through menopause, hormone changes, had children, had any life experiences that will be the staple to who she really is?
If she's not table dancing for cash, she's not out there being a piece of meat. If men out there are oogling your wife, then make it your job to stand up for her. Trust me, if this stereotypical patriarchial marriage bothers her at all, she'll gain her pride and independence and stand up for herself.
You know you could always have a sex change and try to live your life as a woman, and fight your own battles here. You'd never come close to dealing with what a woman really deals with, but I'm sure there are enough men and women out there to give you a life of hell, to which you could really understand life is too short for this crap.
Well I disagree with the purely individualistic notion of freedom, as simply meaning free choice. There are larger dimensions to freedom. And of course freedom is a useless false freedom without egalitarianism.
So the "freedom", you are talking about is the freedom of women to be slaves. You are using the fact that my wife has backward ideas, to suggest she wishes to be inferior.
Medieval peasents would not be friendly to the idea of Republic or democracy.
Sometimes the revolution has to come from above.
Last edited by marius1815; 09-16-2009 at 07:45 AM..
Free choice and egalitarianism (that's right, I looked it up) aside, we still need people to do the "dirty" jobs. Not everyone can be a doctor, a lawyer or in politics. We still need sewage workers, garbage men/women, plumbers, etc. Egalitarianism just gives you the freedom to chose what it is that you want to strive to be. Your wife has chosen to be a house wife and, from what it sounds like, a damn good one at that. Let her be what she wants to be. It's funny how you keep announcing, proudly, that you feel you're so enlightened by advocating "free love" in your own marriage but can't handle it when your wife chooses a more traditional role. Again, the movement is about giving women the freedom to choose what they want to do. You can't dictate what each individual woman does with that freedom. Not even your wife.
And by the way, I don't know anyone, male or female, who doesn't like to feel attractive.
I also keep in mind that part of the vows we took said "forsaking all others".
Free choice and egalitarianism (that's right, I looked it up) aside, we still need people to do the "dirty" jobs. Not everyone can be a doctor, a lawyer or in politics. We still need sewage workers, garbage men/women, plumbers, etc. Egalitarianism just gives you the freedom to chose what it is that you want to strive to be. Your wife has chosen to be a house wife and, from what it sounds like, a damn good one at that. Let her be what she wants to be. It's funny how you keep announcing, proudly, that you feel you're so enlightened by advocating "free love" in your own marriage but can't handle it when your wife chooses a more traditional role. Again, the movement is about giving women the freedom to choose what they want to do. You can't dictate what each individual woman does with that freedom. Not even your wife.
And by the way, I don't know anyone, male or female, who doesn't like to feel attractive.
I also keep in mind that part of the vows we took said "forsaking all others".
You have simply merged the concepts of free choice and egalitarianism together. Your definition only encompasses free choice, not egalitarianism. Reducing freedom to mean simply meaning personal chocie, reduces it to a narrow and useless freedom.
And you seem to be implying that women's work is degrading and low level, which I agree with, but someone has to do it so it might as well be women.
And you seem to be implying that women's work is degrading and low level, which I agree with, but someone has to do it so it might as well be women.
There it is, the OP finally tipped his hand!
He espouses eglatarianism, but on HIS terms, his dictates, his wishes and beliefs(which are ridiculous).
This thread is the biggest load of BS I have read in many a moon.
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. Didn't stop women from having a husband that took care of them and a more powerful lover that took care of them even more (making sure if their husband objected, he'd be kept in control) and on top of that, probably even a young lover strictly for the passion of it and making them feel beautiful and womanly (usually kept a huge secret).Oh, poor poor women. 
.
