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...and the video is supposed to show what...other than you have no rebuttal to what I said.
....and for your information, the Battle of Thermopylae involved 7,000 Greeks and around 100,000 Persians not 300 Greeks and 1,000,000 Persians.
I thought it was simple enough to understand?
To the first part why did God create Hitler or anyone who God knows will cause trouble.
For the nth time, because he can. God does not follow your criteria of how and why do or don't do certain things because your knowledge is extremely limited. You are a creation, not a creator.
Why u never ask this question, "Why does God create a person who God knows will do good things and end up in paradise?
To answer your second question of our free will vs God's knowledge of our destiny ,,,,,, God knows what's in future but you keep forgetting that man does not know his destiny.
Keep this in mind and read your own post again. But before you do that, plz know that the mention of "Battle of Thermopylae" was not the point.
"Our free will vs God's knowledge of future" is an interesting topic but actually very easy to understand IF you have the willingness to understand. Here is small video, plz read the English captions, listen to the example he gives.
To the first part why did God create Hitler or anyone who God knows will cause trouble.
For the nth time, because he can.
...and you actually do think that is a good enough reason for doing so??
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To answer your question of our free will vs God's knowledge of our destiny ,,,,,, God knows what's in future but you keep forgetting that man does not know his destiny.
Man not knowing his destiny is totally irrelevant. The question was... if man has free-will and Yahweh has pre-determined his future how does the man make a free-will decision that will change what Yahweh has planned for him. Address that question. How does John avoid murdering Mary if Yahweh has predestined John to murder Mary?
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Keep this in mind and read your own post again.
There is no need to read my own post again. I am aware of what I am asking you.
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"Our free will vs God's knowledge of future" is an interesting topic but actually very easy to understand IF you have the willingness to understand.
It's certainly easy to understand if you are willing to ignore reason and logic.
The video takes about 'Allah' predetermining the guys life and actions and then goes on to discuss actions that the guy makes via his own free-will. Well you can't have it both ways. Either your life is planned and pre-determined or you have free-will to make your own decisions. Which is it?
To the first part why did God create Hitler or anyone who God knows will cause trouble.
For the nth time, because he can. God does not follow your criteria of how and why do or don't do certain things because your knowledge is extremely limited. You are a creation, not a creator.
To answer your question of our free will vs God's knowledge of our destiny ,,,,,, God knows what's in future but you keep forgetting that man does not know his destiny.
I contend that the idea of free will is utterly incompatible with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent AND benevolent god.
Let's take Yahweh, just as an example.
Did Yahweh not KNOW that Adam and Eve would succumb to temptation in the Garden, covering all subsequent humankind in sin (because they dared to try to gain some knowledge of good and evil?)
Did Yahweh not KNOW that the world would once again grow corrupt and wicked, so that he'd feel compelled to destroy nearly everything and everyone in a flood?
Was he surprised at the actions of Adam and Eve? If not, I'd argue that he's far from omniscient. If so, I'd argue he's far from benevolent.
The Bible indicates that God knows all--each of us--before we are even born, down to every hair on each of our heads, and every breath we will take, every beat of our hearts.
If this is true, he would then KNOW which of us would come to him, or reject him, resulting in eternal torment, correct?
You seem to have little difficulty understanding or explaining, or excusing many things about God:
Quote:
"...why did God create Hitler or anyone who God knows will cause trouble? For the nth time, because he can."
"God does not follow your criteria of how and why do or don't do certain things..."
...God knows what's in future but,,,man does not know his destiny.
So, I think of my questions as simple, direct and honest ones. I would sincerely like to hear your responses.
To my mind, what you propose makes it sound as if God was bored and just wanted some puppets to toy with.
If this is actually the case, I have no interest in worshiping such a being, and further contend that life under such circumstances has no more meaning or purpose than life without belief in a god or gods. Less so, in fact.
The question was... if man has free-will and Yahweh has pre-determined his future how does the man make a free-will decision that will change what Yahweh has planned for him. Address that question. How does John avoid murdering Mary if Yahweh has predestined John to murder Mary?
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Originally Posted by Rafius
The video takes about 'Allah' predetermining the guys life and actions and then goes on to discuss actions that the guy makes via his own free-will. Well you can't have it both ways. Either your life is planned and pre-determined or you have free-will to make your own decisions. Which is it?
Precisely. I don't expect a reasoned response with any attempt at logical consistency.
We might even get a "well, you aren't on my side of the velvet rope...you aren't special or chosen, therefore will always lack the ability to understand" sort of response.
Oh! We might even see a turn of the "why must you persecute Christians?" card.
I contend that the idea of free will is utterly incompatible with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent AND benevolent god.
Let's take Yahweh, just as an example.
Did Yahweh not KNOW that Adam and Eve would succumb to temptation in the Garden, covering all subsequent humankind in sin (because they dared to try to gain some knowledge of good and evil?)
Did Yahweh not KNOW that the world would once again grow corrupt and wicked, so that he'd feel compelled to destroy nearly everything and everyone in a flood?
Was he surprised at the actions of Adam and Eve? If not, I'd argue that he's far from omniscient. If so, I'd argue he's far from benevolent.
The Bible indicates that God knows all--each of us--before we are even born, down to every hair on each of our heads, and every breath we will take, every beat of our hearts.
If this is true, he would then KNOW which of us would come to him, or reject him, resulting in eternal torment, correct?
I'm not an Omni-god believer, but I'm curious if you think that a benevolent God knowing ahead of time what the result of free-will would be, would preclude that God from allowing it to go forward anyway? IF free-will is simply an integral part of being conscious and aware, did God do something evil by allowing people to experience being conscious and aware? Eternal torment not entering the equation (I'm assuming benevolent God would institute no such thing) and leaving out omnipotence as well (I'm assuming that God, at the very least, would be logically constrained by free will beings) do you think it is evil to give beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity?
I contend that the idea of free will is utterly incompatible with the idea of an omniscient, omnipotent AND benevolent god.
Exactly old beast!
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Originally Posted by Griffis
Precisely. I don't expect a reasoned response with any attempt at logical consistency.
Might be a first! On the other hand.....
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Originally Posted by Pleroo
I'm not an Omni-god believer, but I'm curious if you think that a benevolent God knowing ahead of time what the result of free-will would be, would preclude that God from allowing it to go forward anyway? IF free-will is simply an integral part of being conscious and aware, did God do something evil by allowing people to experience being conscious and aware? Eternal torment not entering the equation (I'm assuming benevolent God would institute no such thing) and leaving out omnipotence as well (I'm assuming that God, at the very least, would be logically constrained by free will beings) do you think it is evil to give beings an opportunity to experience conscious life with the ability to choose freely how they will use that opportunity?
Can you explain how John can make a free-will decision to avoid killing Mary if that is what Yahweh has ordained.
You see old horse! This is where things get complicated. So many believers all with different ideas of what 'God' is or isn't. Of course, if we have a god that is not omnimax then we have an answer to every problem don't we.
For 4000 years, Yahweh has been omnimax but now, faced with the logical inconsistencies and impossibilities that an omnimax deity raises, we see believers completely changing the nature of their god in order to overcome the problems.
I'm old enough to remember a time when Yahweh was an enigma, a mystery beyond the understanding of we mere mortals but suddenly, over the past 15 years or so, every believer has started having a bloody 'personal relationship' with the 'mysterious enigma' that was 'God'.
When one is faced with the insurmountable problem of... 'if god hates evil why doesn't an omnimax deity stop evil'...just claim that your god isn't omnimax. Simple! Problem solved.
No, I can't. My scenario didn't include God ordaining anything.
See above post. Since when did Yahweh go from being the omnimax creator of the universe to ...well... someone that seems to be pretty much impotent?
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