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As a math teacher uses a math book to teach math,
as an English teacher uses an English book to teach English,
as a science teacher uses a science book to teach science,
a Bible teacher would use the Bible to teach what the Bible really teaches.
True, math, English, science, history, etc. can be found within many books on the subject.
Whereas the Bible is unique, and only the Bible's teachings can be found within the 66 books of Bible canon.
What about the books that didn't make the cannon? They were 'inspired' by Yahweh too but the Church decided to throw them out.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
On the other hand, if it really is the word of God, as is claimed, you can see why is would have validity.
'IF' is the important word here.
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Originally Posted by jimmiej
True, but remember, the Bible is really 66 books and letters, written over thousands of years, by some who actually walked with Jesus, all claiming basically the same thing.
No. There are no accounts of JtC that were written by eye-witnesses.
Let's deal with the part of a post I made to you that you have avoided.
Let me help you by summarising:
I asked you to explain how, as Yahweh pre-determines someone's life, how can they make a free-will choice that will change what Yahweh has planned for them.
You said that God absolutely does not pre-determine someone's life.
I said that the Bible disagrees with you and gave you Bible verses that specifically say that God DOES pre-determine our lives.
Your answer to this was that you do not follow the Bible so couldn't help me regarding what is written in it.
Later, on another matter, you stated that you believe what God has told you in his book.
I am asking what book you are referring to. Are you referring to the Bible...that you do not follow or does 'God' have another book that I'm not aware of?
Perhaps you and I, are deriving two different meanings from the word "pre-determine".
When you say "pre-determine" you mean as if God has pre-programmed a person to make a certain choice so there is no free-will.
And I am saying, "No, God has the knowledge of future and he knows that what would a man choose based on his free will.
An example as from the video.
If I place 5 crayons in front of you.
A blue one, a red one, a green one a yellow one and a purple one.
And I ask you to pick a crayon of your choice, based on your free will. Pick WHICHEVER you want.
And I already know which one will you pick.
So before you make your pick, I write down the color name you will pick on a paper and put it in my pocket.
Now you have a free choice to pick anyone you want so you pick a color. I pull the paper out of my pocket and show you that I had the same color written because I KNEW which one will you pick.
We repeat this process as many times as you like, and I always know which color will you pick.
Does that mean I pre-determine or pre-program your choice? NO! It simply means that I have the accurate knowledge of future. And this is one of the reasons why a God is a God.
So now, if God tells you that here is a pool of fire and here is a pool of water.
If you jump into pool of fire, it will hurt you. And if you jump in pool of water, you should be OK.
God writes it down on a piece of paper as to which pool you are going to jump BUT you don't know what God has written on that piece of paper.
So now, it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to use your intelligence, your logic, and your common sense to make a choice based on free will as to which pool you will jump in.
Perhaps you and I, are deriving two different meanings from the word "pre-determine".
No, I don't think so.
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When you say "pre-determine" you mean as if God has pre-programmed a person to make a certain choice so there is no free-will.
Yes...that is what pre-determination means according to the Bible.
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And I am saying, "No, God has the knowledge of future and he knows that what would a man choose based on his free will.
It's the same thing. If your God knows what the decision will be then there is no free-will to make any other choice because to do so would prove God 's knowledge to be wrong.
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If I place 5 crayons in front of you.
A blue one, a red one, a green one a yellow one and a purple one.
And I ask you to pick a crayon of your choice, based on your free will. Pick WHICHEVER you want.
And I already know which one will you pick.
So before you make your pick, I write down the color name you will pick on a paper and put it in my pocket.
Now you have a free choice to pick anyone you want so you pick a color. I pull the paper out of my pocket and show you that I had the same color written because I KNEW which one will you pick.
If you KNOW that I will pick up the red crayon, can I pick up the yellow one? No I can't. Because if I do I have proven you wrong
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We repeat this process as many times as you like, and I always know which color will you pick.
Does that mean I pre-determine or pre-program your choice? NO! It simply means that I have the accurate knowledge of future. And this is one of the reasons why a God is a God.
Exactly. So if you have the accurate knowledge of future then I have no free-will to make any choice that will change what you know will happen
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So now, if God tells you that here is a pool of fire and here is a pool of water.
If you jump into pool of fire, it will hurt you. And if you jump in pool of water, you should be OK.
God writes it down on a piece of paper as to which pool you are going to jump BUT you don't know what God has written on that piece of paper.
So now, it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to use your intelligence, your logic, and your common sense to make a choice based on free will as to which pool you will jump in.
No, I can't make a choice because if your god KNOWS from before I am born that I will be an atheist on the day I die and be thrown into the pool of fire, how can I, during my life, choose to become a believer and go to the pool of water. If I become a believer during my life and go for the water then your god's knowledge that I will go to the fire is proven wrong isn't it?
As it says in the Bible....
'Every day of my life is written in your book before I was even born' (paraphrasing). What you need to explain is just how, if every day of my life is written in your god's 'book' - how can I change what is written? I can't because to do so will change what is written about me. Thus free will is incompatible with an all-seeing, all-knowing deity.
The cruel man will beat his children and his wife.
Why?
Because he can
...and in your world that is good enough reason.
lol haha, you are judging God with your own extremely limited knowledge and calling him "cruel" - what is your or my worth? A dead piece of rotten meat for insects in a few years? the ones who can't hold there pee or poo for two days?
No sir, God will not beat his children or wife. The accurate way of looking at this is, "some folks will face the consequences of their evil deeds after repeated warnings."
You sow a seed of cactus and you look to reap apples on the cactus plant? Well, it's YOUR CHOICE if that's what u want to do.
I have repeatedly said it, this short life is an opportunity to make choices based on free will, so we should use our intelligence, our logic and our common sense to do our own research, and try to make the right choices.
And in the end, we will be responsible for choices that were based on free will.
No, I don't think so.
Yes...that is what pre-determination means according to the Bible.
It's the same thing. If your God knows what the decision will be then there is no free-will to make any other choice because to do so would prove God 's knowledge to be wrong.
If you KNOW that I will pick up the red crayon, can I pick up the yellow one? No I can't. Because if I do I have proven you wrong
Exactly. So if you have the accurate knowledge of future then I have no free-will to make any choice that will change what you know will happen
No, I can't make a choice because if your god KNOWS from before I am born that I will be an atheist on the day I die and be thrown into the pool of fire, how can I, during my life, choose to become a believer and go to the pool of water. If I become a believer during my life and go for the water then your god's knowledge that I will go to the fire is proven wrong isn't it?
You can NOT reason with unreasoning credulity, Rafius!! It is not possible!! Do you actually think you could reason with someone who would fly a plane into a building expecting 72 virgins to meet him in heaven can be reasoned with????
He already does. You have even confirmed it with your own words. What was it you said?
Will God throw some humans into fire? Probably yes.
Why?
Because he can.
Its the same reason the man beats his wife and children....because he can.
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The accurate way of looking at this is, "some folks will face the consequences of their evil deeds after repeated warnings."
...and what evil deed has the infant born with disabilities done; the baby born without arm and legs; the baby born with mental disabilities. Do tell.
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I have repeatedly said it, this short life is an opportunity to make choices based on free will, so we should use our intelligence, our logic and our common sense to do our own research, and try to make the right choices.
And in the end, we will be responsible for choices that were based on free will.
You have not proven free-will
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
You can NOT reason with unreasoning credulity, Rafius!! It is not possible!!
Yes...that is what pre-determination means according to the Bible.
It's the same thing. If your God knows what the decision will be then there is no free-will to make any other choice because to do so would prove God 's knowledge to be wrong.
If you KNOW that I will pick up the red crayon, can I pick up the yellow one? No I can't. Because if I do I have proven you wrong
Exactly. So if you have the accurate knowledge of future then I have no free-will to make any choice that will change what you know will happen
No, I can't make a choice because if your god KNOWS from before I am born that I will be an atheist on the day I die and be thrown into the pool of fire, how can I, during my life, choose to become a believer and go to the pool of water. If I become a believer during my life and go for the water then your god's knowledge that I will go to the fire is proven wrong isn't it?
As it says in the Bible....
'Every day of my life is written in your book before I was even born' (paraphrasing). What you need to explain is just how, if every day of my life is written in your god's 'book' - how can I change what is written? I can't because to do so will change what is written about me. Thus free will is incompatible with an all-seeing, all-knowing deity.
Look at what you wrote above.
No where u mentioned that "BECAUSE I DONT KNOW WHATS MY DESTINY, I will use my intelligence and my common sense to make a choice.
You keep forgetting the key point here - YOU DONT KNOW WHAT GOD HAS WRITTEN SO YOU CANT CHANGE IT.
You could change it to something else ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS, IN THE FIRST PLACE. Man, how hard is it to understand???
Leave God out of it for a second.
Let's do it between u and I.
Would you give a flying flock as to which pool I have pre-written for u before u jump in, if there is a pool of fire and a pool of water in front of you?
Would you use your logic, intelligence and common sense to make a choice ?
You keep forgetting the key point here - YOU DONT KNOW WHAT GOD HAS WRITTEN SO YOU CANT CHANGE IT.
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER I KNOW OR NOT! You're just not getting it.
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You change it to something else ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT IT IS, IN THE FIRST PLACE.
No you are wrong. I don't know what colour pencil you have chosen. Can I pick up a different colour than the one you KNOW I will chose? The answer is NO I can't, thus I have no free will
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Man, how hard is it to understand???
I'm thinking the same about you...so are others it would seem.
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Would you give a flying flock as to which pool I have pre-written for u be u r going to jump in if there is a pool of fire and a pool of water in front of you?
Would you use your logic, intelligence and common sense to make a choice
Of course. But what you are just not getting is, if the choice has already been made for me since before I was born as stated in the Bible, how do I have a choice?
He already does. You have even confirmed it with your own words. What was it you said?
Will God throw some humans into fire? Probably yes.
Why?
Because he can.
Its the same reason the man beats his wife and children....because he can.
...and what evil deed has the infant born with disabilities done; the baby born without arm and legs; the baby born with mental disabilities. Do tell.
You have not proven free-will
...but it is good fun making them look foolish.
Not sure what faiths have u been reading? But in my faith, children and babies (regardless of their faith) go to paradise, no question asked. .
Are you a kid by any chance?
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