Bay Area Support for Sheltering in Place is Strongest in CA (Los Angeles: live, costs)

[Ceece]

Originally Posted by Eli34

Nothing is back to business as usual, even in states that are opening up. People are still social distancing, avoiding large crowds and many businesses still require mask usage. And it's still way too early to tell how this will go only 3 weeks in since Georgia first opened up. The number of infections doesn't tell the full story since not everyone gets tested, but the real indicator will be the number of deaths and it takes over 3 weeks for those numbers to start coming out telling us the real picture of what is going on.

This is partially why I say kick the government out of the decision making. Sure, they can ban large gatherings, events, etc. for public safety concerns, but the complete shut down was an overreaction and legal overreach. There will be lawsuits. Let businesses decide if they want to open, let the citizens decide if they want to be out among others and to what degree. Just because a place opens doesn't mean it's business as usual, many will find it's more costly to open and have no business than to close...and while that's still awful it's the market, not the government, that will be the cause.

Will more people get sick? People are going to keep getting sick as long as this virus exists so exposure needs to be ongoing, let people can self select into that risk pool if they want.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

How many saved lives we can get away with? As many as possible.

What about the lives that will be lost due to isolation, mass unemployment, and people not seeking/receiving medical care for other conditions?

My friend is a social worker in a hospital and, while she's generally in favor of the shelter in place measures, she agrees that the shelter in place is having negative side effects that are being ignored. And as others have said, much of the hospital isn't busy because so much has been cancelled and/or people aren't seeking medical care.

If people could just get over their partisan hatreds, they would be able to see a strict lockdown can actually cause more total deaths than less restrictive measures (notice I didn't say "no restrictions"). A strict lockdown will NOT save more lives and is NOT compassionate.

Robert Kennedy Jr. also talked about this in the interview below (and he's a Democrat btw) starting at ~44:55


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLi6ZrFp6vQ&t=2870s

[mysticaltyger]

I'd also add that Sweden has also not pushed strict lockdown conditions and they do have somewhat higher Covid 19 deaths, they likely have fewer deaths from other causes. The U.S. has seen spikes in deaths attributable to other causes as a result of Covid 19.

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/artic...soon-be-worlds

Sweden has won praise in some quarters for preserving at least some semblance of economic normalcy and keeping its per capita death rate lower than those of Belgium, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Spain, and the United Kingdom....


...Countries lifting restrictions should also learn from Sweden’s missteps when it comes to the elderly and immigrants: masks and other protective equipment should be made immediately available in nursing homes, and greater emphasis should be placed on protecting service-sector workers who are at higher risk because of age or infirmity. But the emphasis must be on helping at-risk people stay safe and out of harm’s way, not locking entire societies down.


...official statistics support the findings of independent efforts to determine the pandemic’s hidden toll — including reporting by The Post and other newspapers showing that excess U.S. deaths soared in the early weeks of the pandemic. They also buttress fears that people with heart conditions, strokes and other life-threatening conditions might be dying at home in greater than usual numbers. Doctors have worried that people are not going to hospitals because they are afraid of contracting the virus.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...101_story.html

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

And how many people will never step foot in those restaurants out of fear? Even if they fully open, these businesses aren't going to make it if they don't rethink their business model.

Anecdotal evidence from states that have opened up suggest otherwise. Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean everyone else won't.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Finper

Ducey is slowly opening the whole state not Maricopa county. Az positives are 10,500 Ca positives are 64,500. What’s that about how great Newsome is again????

We can’t make the cure worse then the disease. Newsome is wrecking Ca economy and he needs to reverse course fast!

Let’s revisit this post in a week and compare states shall we??

FYI, it's Newsom (no "e" at the end).

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by TheseGoTo11

So many sad sheep here who think that if you question Dr. Tapper or Dr. Newsom you must be a Trump supporter.

Yeah, I guess most people in Sweden would support Trump if they could. I'm sure Robert Kennedy Jr. must be a Trump supporter, too.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by roadwarrior101

Yes, its all a big left wing conspiracy. Amazing on the lack of intelligence and distrust of science in this country. There's a reason why our cases/deaths aren't going down, like we're seeing in other countries.

There's good reason why we distrust scientists. They're only thinking about one aspect of this epidemic. They are NOT thinking about the social costs, which also result in excess deaths.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Eli34

Nothing is back to business as usual, even in states that are opening up. People are still social distancing, avoiding large crowds and many businesses still require mask usage. And it's still way too early to tell how this will go only 3 weeks in since Georgia first opened up. The number of infections doesn't tell the full story since not everyone gets tested, but the real indicator will be the number of deaths and it takes over 3 weeks for those numbers to start coming out telling us the real picture of what is going on.

No, the real indicator will be the number of deaths A YEAR FROM NOW, not just from the virus, but also from above normal death rates in other categories that are likely attributable to the lockdown, unemployment, and inability/unwillingness to seek medical care (heart disease, diabetes, suicides, depression), etc.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

What about the lives that will be lost due to isolation, mass unemployment, and people not seeking/receiving medical care for other conditions?

My friend is a social worker in a hospital and, while she's generally in favor of the shelter in place measures, she agrees that the shelter in place is having negative side effects that are being ignored. And as others have said, much of the hospital isn't busy because so much has been cancelled and/or people aren't seeking medical care.

If people could just get over their partisan hatreds, they would be able to see a strict lockdown can actually cause more total deaths than less restrictive measures (notice I didn't say "no restrictions"). A strict lockdown will NOT save more lives and is NOT compassionate.

That is impossible for you to know.

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

There's good reason why we distrust scientists. They're only thinking about one aspect of this epidemic. They are NOT thinking about the social costs, which also result in excess deaths.

Oh? Load of bs. Social scientists are very much also scientists ... and are deeply engaged in this CV19 crisis.

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

No, the real indicator will be the number of deaths A YEAR FROM NOW, not just from the virus, but also from above normal death rates in other categories that are likely attributable to the lockdown, unemployment, and inability/unwillingness to seek medical care (heart disease, diabetes, suicides, depression), etc.

And you, I suppose, will be the arbiter of what’s attributable and what’s ‘pre-existing’?

[landlock]

Originally Posted by Ceece

Sure, they can ban large gatherings, events, etc. for public safety concerns,

No, they can't. It violates freedom of assembly.
Especially not over fake-o-demic.
Otherwise I agree.

Originally Posted by llowllevellowll

I believe that one very over-stated thing right now is this idea of mental health as a reason for returning to work. It's partially a shield in an attempt to dissuade the masses from getting too comfortable outside of the slave system.

Re: happiness on unemployment. It has improved my mental health. Sadly, I lost an uncle to COVID, lost my job, and one of my lenders refused the refinance despite my having no interest in removing any equity (a foreshadowing of depressing things to come for the working classes). But I've long since disconnected myself from the rat race. I'd rather witness people getting back to what they were long ago or considering who or what they want to be when this all returns to some semblance of normalcy. I think a lot of people might see this for what it is and decide that a different way of life might suit them. Or they'll take the trip they always considered as soon as it's possible. We might even see revolutions. Maybe even here when people figure out what this all is. It can be a liberating time for people, truthfully. So, I'm enjoying the fireworks, being frugal, learning how to really cook well, reading books I always said I'd finish. I've been on more hikes in the past 2 and a half months than I've probably taken in the past 5 years. Just like with my uncle... there's going to be some sorrow and some sacrifices, but these are the times we get to truly learn who we are. Occasionally there will be some who don't like what they learn, but for a great many, this time is just a nice respite from the system. I believe most people would feel that too if the media ever dared talk like this, though. So, instead, we're being told that we hate this time of uncertainty, that we'll be suicidal or stricken with mental illness, so we should instead know that we've overcome the situation, and we're all ready to be at work, to get our steady paycheck, and then we'll be content.

You know, you don't want the cure to be worse than the disease... =P

Nonsense, right? It's a potentially great time to be alive!

Oh boy... I understand it's great to take a year off now to hike the Alps (except they won't open the border over fake-o-demic) or live in a hut on some acreage and write a book about self-reflection and spiritual awakenenigs, take up wildflower painting, patchouli soap-making, etc. But a lot of people will now become homeless, not be able to eat well and will be forced to do jobs they never wanted to do to begin with (and wouldn't have to, before recession) - that if they even find a job. The outcome will be people forced into much worse forms of slavery than before. Some will never be able to get back on their feet.