St. Louis to remove Confederate monument (Union, Miller: high crime, deed, standard of living)

[1grin_g0]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

Everything was fine when the oppressed underclass quietly wasted away in obscurity, but now they're stirring things up with talk of rights and respect!

Respect is usually earned from building things, not from tearing things down. Rights? The right to tear something down? I think most in the black community would feel insulted by your remarks, as conditions have certainly improved over the years. Yes there are still blacks that are struggling, but to say they have "wasted away in obscurity" is out of line and out of touch.

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by 1grin_g0

Respect is usually earned from building things, not from tearing things down. Rights? The right to tear something down? I think most in the black community would feel insulted by your remarks, as conditions have certainly improved over the years. Yes there are still blacks that are struggling, but to say they have "wasted away in obscurity" is out of line and out of touch.

Conditions have not improved much, which is part of why Black Lives Matter gained so much traction. Black Americans are still punching-bags for landowners and law enforcement around the country. Those long-simmering tensions have begun boiling over, and conservatives are acting shocked that anything is purportedly amiss. You can't simultaneously argue that Black social issues haven't been obscured for decades, while expressing surprise that issues like the Confederate memorial are coming to a head "all of a sudden". It's the obscurity that makes many people think that race relations have gotten worse recently.

[1grin_g0]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

Conditions have not improved much, which is part of why Black Lives Matter gained so much traction. Black Americans are still punching-bags for landowners and law enforcement around the country. Those long-simmering tensions have begun boiling over, and conservatives are acting shocked that anything is purportedly amiss. You can't simultaneously argue that Black social issues haven't been obscured for decades, while expressing surprise that issues like the Confederate memorial are coming to a head "all of a sudden". It's the obscurity that makes many people think that race relations have gotten worse recently.

Well, you can't simultaneously argue that democratic policies have been successful, and then turn around and say that conditions haven't improved much. That's one of the reasons that Hillary lost the election. She had to convince blacks that things were still so terrible, and at the same time convince them how wonderful another 8 years of Obama would be. That messaging is so fake. It is not a surprise that she wasn't able to turn out the Black vote.

[SouthCitySam]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

..."blacks are to know their place and not challenge the social order"...

I believe you're making a valid point here.

America was conceived and birthed by Europeans and therefore America was an extension of western civilization into the new world. Naturally any society will seek to maintain itself - unless its suicidal. So again, quite naturally, European-Americans had the desire to maintain their western civilization. The Africans, which were shipped in bulk to America, came from uncivilized primitive societies. So it would have been natural and well within reason for European-derived people to view Africans as uncivilized primitives and as such completely incompatible to western civilization and the social order they established to maintain a western civilization.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by SouthCitySam

I believe you're making a valid point here.

America was conceived and birthed by Europeans and therefore America was an extension of western civilization into the new world. Naturally any society will seek to maintain itself - unless its suicidal. So again, quite naturally, European-Americans had the desire to maintain their western civilization. The Africans, which were shipped in bulk to America, came from uncivilized primitive societies. So it would have been natural and well within reason for European-derived people to view Africans as uncivilized primitives and as such completely incompatible to western civilization and the social order they established to maintain a western civilization.

Actually, no. I did not make that point. My point was that White supremacy is based on the idea that anyone who isn't White should be satisfied to occupy a lower social rung or suffer the consequences. Proof of that is back in the earlier days, whenever Blacks did do nicely, they were subjected to some kind of violence. Tulsa ring a bell?

That is what those statues represent. The South's assertion of White supremacy.

And for the record, I really don't care why many Europeans viewed my ancestors in such a negative way. What matters to me is what I get out of my life, making sure I get the same fair chances as everyone else in this country.

[FrankMiller]

Originally Posted by 1grin_g0

Well, you can't simultaneously argue that democratic policies have been successful, and then turn around and say that conditions haven't improved much. That's one of the reasons that Hillary lost the election. She had to convince blacks that things were still so terrible, and at the same time convince them how wonderful another 8 years of Obama would be. That messaging is so fake. It is not a surprise that she wasn't able to turn out the Black vote.

Democratic policies have absolutely been successful, but there's still a lot further to go. And many issues, like policing and voter suppression, are largely controlled at the state or local level where Republicans often have power (e.g., Voter ID laws). Obama did a lot of work through the DOJ to make sentencing more fair, roll back unjust incarcerations, take racist policing to task, etc.

[1grin_g0]

Originally Posted by FrankMiller

Democratic policies have absolutely been successful, but there's still a lot further to go. And many issues, like policing and voter suppression, are largely controlled at the state or local level where Republicans often have power (e.g., Voter ID laws). Obama did a lot of work through the DOJ to make sentencing more fair, roll back unjust incarcerations, take racist policing to task, etc.

Yeah, that's exactly how Hillary tried to sell it. And having to show an ID is not voter suppression, it's common sense. Republicans do not have control over the large metropolitan police departments or criminal justice systems where blacks make up a significant voting block, give me a break, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Besides, removing that monument is not going to solve any of the issues that you brought up.

[MUTGR]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

And if you want to talk about that, a separate thread would be a better idea. If you know anything about me, you know I've discussed crime issues. This thread is not the time or the place to do this. Different thread for a different time. Instead of deflecting from the topic, perhaps it would better to admit that maybe many people have a very good reason for wanting those statues down, despite you calling it "PC".

I actually respect your opinion on this. I imagine it is offensive to black people who are descendents of slaves. I still think perhaps some middle ground can be found. Descendents of Confederates are Americans too. My ancestors fought and some died for the Union. Some of my ancestors subsequently fought and died alongside of confederate ancestors in the wars since: World War I, WW II, Korea, Viet Nam, etc, et al. They were all Americans.

I also think there is a dangerous slippery slope with this. I continue to think the politicians putting emphasis on this are both pandering and they are deflecting from the serious issues facing urban populations, primarily black populations. I have nothing new to say so I will bow out of this thread.

[SouthCitySam]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

...

Well the Mods have deleted my reply to your post. Apparently your post has been delete as well. At least I can not find it. The Mods labeled my post "hate speech". LOL! Shame on the Mods.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by SouthCitySam

Well the Mods have deleted my reply to your post. Apparently your post has been delete as well. At least I can not find it. The Mods labeled my post "hate speech". LOL! Shame on the Mods.

Well, considering that you suggested that I should be sent to Africa/American citizenship should be revoked, I understand why.