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The hyperbole on both sides of this thread are mucho entertaining. Reminds me of drama class in high school, when we had to act out an emotion, with an assigned topic.
I wouldn't call it hyperbole from the "for SB1070" posters, AnonChick. I don't think that side of the debate has said anything that can be construed as exaggeration. This is a very emotionally charged topic and I believe we are now just going around in circles and probably will have to just agree to disagree unless we want to continue regurgitating our own points for another couple hundred pages. However, the posters who think we might as well call Martial Law or consider ourselves a Police State because we might have to start showing proof of citizenship if we commit a crime.... definitely hyperbole.
Instead of passing a law that targets hispanics, Arizona could do what Governor Richardson did in New Mexico. Take note what a real Governor does.... Brewer bent over and let people like Russell Pearce call the shots. As we all know, SB 1070 does nothing to secure the border. But of course, solutions that don't bring solutions is the Arizona way.
It does not "target" Hispanics. It targets Illegal immigrant criminals i.e. illegal immigrants who commit a crime, other than entering and staying illegally. It is not Arizona's fault that the highest percentage of illegals in the state are Hispanic and therefore people get the impression they are being targeted. Officers need to ask all people who commit a crime, for proof of citizenship. Then there will be no way you or anyone else can claim there was any profiling at all. This is what I hope they do. For all we know, it is what they will do. Yet you are already assuming they will profile. You are absolutely right, SB1070 does nothing to secure the border, but at least Arizona is doing something. What it will do is discourage people from wanting to enter Arizona illegally, and encourage them to leave if they are illegal. Call it a virtual fence if you'd like.
Every time I try to type a comment on your suggestion that we should "Take note what a real Governor does" referring to Governor Richardson of New Mexico, it sounds like an attack and I don’t mean for it to. I'll just say, I don't think that would be a good idea at all, but I'm not at all surprised you would suggest it.
The "Chandler Roundup" wasn't hyperbole. It was a real event that foreshadows what is going to happen if SB 1070 is allowed to stand.
During the "Chandler Roundup" the Chandler Police Department was accosting citizens and illegals and asking for proof of citizenship. Of course, it was only hispanics that were asked to prove they belonged in the Country.
$500,000 was the final settlement. It could have been more, but the city of Chandler was quick to admit it was wrong to lessen the penalty.
The people of Arizona will have to pay for the litigation to defend SB 1070. This doesn't even consider the civil lawsuits from citizens that are wrongly arrested by overzealous police officers.
What makes you think that people want to see something like that repeated? Don't you think they'd be intelligent enough to be 'smarter' about it this time? I doubt very much that anything like that would ever happen. People...cops...aren't stupid and I bet there are still people around who remember that incident. You don't give people much credit for learning lessons. I barely remember it myself but it doesn't seem to me that they were actually accosting people on the street and demanding proof of citizenship. I doubt cops are going to be 'overzealous' maybe just because they aren't stupid. AND they KNOW that people are going be watching them for just such infractions. So, no, I don't think that's ever going to happen. But I understand that there are people who are probably HOPING it will just so they can jump up and down and say "I told you so!!!".
Then quit yelping about securing the border. SB 1070 does not secure the border. So when another rancher is killed, Governor Brewer should resign for not doing enough to protect the citizens of Arizona.
Within days of Robert Krentz's murder, Governor Richardson send Guard troops to the border.
Does anyone have the intellectual honesty to admit that Governor Brewer signed SB 1070 solely for political reasons?
Last edited by goodneighbor1234; 06-04-2010 at 09:41 PM..
What makes you think that people want to see something like that repeated? Don't you think they'd be intelligent enough to be 'smarter' about it this time? I doubt very much that anything like that would ever happen. People...cops...aren't stupid and I bet there are still people around who remember that incident. You don't give people much credit for learning lessons. I barely remember it myself but it doesn't seem to me that they were actually accosting people on the street and demanding proof of citizenship. I doubt cops are going to be 'overzealous' maybe just because they aren't stupid. AND they KNOW that people are going be watching them for just such infractions. So, no, I don't think that's ever going to happen. But I understand that there are people who are probably HOPING it will just so they can jump up and down and say "I told you so!!!".
My post was in response to someone that said that it would be a good idea to do what happened during the "Chandler Roundup."
If it happened before it can happen again. History does have a habit of repeating.
Anyone that looked like an illegal alien was stopped by police officers on bicycles and were asked to prove citizenship. Many of those arrested were illegal. Unfortunately for the city of Chandler, some of them were citizens. American citizens were wrongfully arrested for what can only be described as looking like an illegal.
Chandler paid $500,000 in damages. I hope you're right, and this doesn't happen again. But, I wouldn't be surprised if it does.
Then quit yelping about securing the border. SB 1070 does not secure the border. So when another rancher is killed, Governor Brewer should resign for not doing enough to protect the citizens of Arizona.
Mod Cut: Personal
Securing the citizens = STATE responsibility.
Securing the borders = FEDERAL responsibility.
1070 does not have to directly secure the borders. It's to clean up what's already there. The deal though is that if the law holds up in court, Obama will have no choice but to step up and get the border locked down like should have been done years ago.
You need to understand - this is not solely a Federal issue nor is it solely a State issue, but due to the negligence of the Feds, the State had to make a tough choice.
I read up on that Chandler Roundup and you know what I find different? Lawful detainment, versus random profiling. But at least it makes sense to me why some people are ignoring the obvious need for this law; had someone explained it clearly two weeks ago I might have been more forgiving. Still doesn't change my opinion that the law is needed in order to fix the mess the Feds allowed to happen all this time.
Last edited by Grannysroost; 06-05-2010 at 08:26 AM..
Why do you think it's gotten as much attention as it has? It's because Obama himself essentially came out and said he doesn't plan to do anything about it anytime soon. At least Bush stepped forward and acknowledged that border security was lax. The other problem is that he's trying to stop Arizona from protecting its own borders. What the hell else are they supposed to do? Let their state citizens continue to be victimized while Obama goes to concerts, gives empty threats to oil companies (mind you, that whole fiasco is yet another government screwup for not having the proper oversight and controls in place before authorizing the drilling) and talks to kids at schools?
Here's my opinion: Inaction is just as bad as improper action, and quite frankly, his response to Arizona is the WRONG one. What he needs to do is say, "Arizonians are frustrated, they're being victimized, and the federal government is solely to blame. Starting right now that border is on lockdown." and do WHATEVER it takes to stop the influx of illegals. Instead, he's backing down from the issue entirely and criticizing Arizona for doing what it had to do. I sincerely wish this counted as treasonous behavior so he could be impeached, because he more than deserves it for what he's doing.
Wow! Now THAT made me change my mind! What a heroic act! And it stopped all of those nasty old illegals coming across the border until this dumb NEW guy screwed things up.Hey, I just thought, who was it that was President when those permits for that oil were authorized...........
Securing the citizens = STATE responsibility.
Securing the borders = FEDERAL responsibility.
1070 does not have to directly secure the borders. It's to clean up what's already there. The deal though is that if the law holds up in court, Obama will have no choice but to step up and get the border locked down like should have been done years ago.
You need to understand - this is not solely a Federal issue nor is it solely a State issue, but due to the negligence of the Feds, the State had to make a tough choice.
I read up on that Chandler Roundup and you know what I find different? Lawful detainment, versus random profiling. But at least it makes sense to me why some people are ignoring the obvious need for this law; had someone explained it clearly two weeks ago I might have been more forgiving. Still doesn't change my opinion that the law is needed in order to fix the mess the Feds allowed to happen all this time.
All I'm doing is highlighting the different approaches by two Governors of neighboring States.
A rancher is murdered by a drug runner, and what does the governor of New Mexico do? He unilaterally sends guard troops to the border.
What does the governor of Arizona do? She bends to the will of people like Russell Pearce and signs into law a controversial bill that does not protect Americans that live near the border.
Governor Brewer signed SB 1070 solely for political gain. Similar to what conservatives are saying about Obama.... "Never let a crisis pass you by."
Last edited by Grannysroost; 06-05-2010 at 08:28 AM..
Karmaphx... ( and anyone else who wants Arizona to keep out of the feds business ) .......
A simple, straightforward question .. hopefully eliciting a simple, straightforward, and honest answer.
But we do have to start with a few simple, but obvious, acceptances .......
1) Mexicans ( yes, I said mexicans ) are pouring over the border.. They have no plans to stop coming to america.. And for everyone that's here, there's 10 more waiting their turn to cross.. ( if 10 million mexicans cross over, and 10,000 others come in illegally, too .. my only concern is the 10 million.. I'd be insane to look at it any other way )..
2) The have a serious impact on Arizona ( and america ).. Crime, schools, money, resources, .. the list goes on and on.. And its a negative impact.. And its getting steadly worse.. And will continue to get worse.. This is never going to suddenly turn into a positive situation.. Even if they were suddenly all citizens, the cost would be the same .. or MORE.. The would almost ALL be in a low enough tax bracket that they'd not only get back all their income tax money .. but they'd qualify for tax credits which would give them even more cash back .. plus quailfy for even more benefits than they're already getting.. .... absolutely insane, but true.
3) Arizona can't go after the illegals in Arizona because the press, the illegal's supporters, other states, the media, and even (god help us) the illegals won't let them.. And obama has already told Arizona he will have his justice department go after Arizona if they do.. That its a federal job.
4) Arizona can't go after the employers because obama has told Arizona that he'll go after Arizona if they do .. that its a federal job..
5) Arizona CAN'T go on indefinitely with the situation like it is and not go bankrupt.. Or just keep taking more and more money from the people who actually pay the bills in the state.. Which will drive them away.. And just isn't fair to them.. And the feds doing anything beyond token .. is YEARS away....... if ever..
So, the question is ........
...... WHAT SHOULD ARIZONA DO NOW ??? ......
And PLEASE don't answer with what Arizona shouldn't do.. Or what the feds should do.. or what's right or wrong.. Arizona's asking you straight out .....
...... WHAT SHOULD ARIZONA DO NOW !!! ......
I really want to hear your answer .. I'm sure alot of people do.. And not just you .. I'm not doing this to jump on your back .. you were just the most recent poster when I started this post .. the question is for ALL of the ones who say Arizona should back off cause its a federal authority situation.
As of this moment .. YOU'RE the governor of Arizona .. and its now YOUR responsibility.. ( and anyone else who wants to play along ) ... forget the new law .. forget what side you're on.
Arizona's up against the wall .. nowhere else to go .. not allowed to do anything to help itself .. and no help coming from the federal government .. and the problem is just going to continue .. and get worse..
YOU'RE the captain of the ship .. and your ship's taking on water .. and taking it on fast.. and its getting worse .. and help ISN'T coming.. Half the people on your ship are nitpicking at EVERY move you make, and many probably don't even believe there's really a problem.. Many do, but don't really care because they expect someone else to take care of it.. pay for it.. But you KNOW there's a serious problem.. And the lives of everyone on board (even the ones getting in your way ) are your responsibility .. are in your hands..... What's your decision..
WHAT DOES ARIZONA DO NOW ???
tiberius
ENFORCE ARIZONAS EXISTING LAW about punishing Employers for hiring illegals. No work= many fewer illegals.
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Hey, I just thought, who was it that was President when those permits for that oil were authorized...........
