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Old 01-11-2012, 09:27 PM
 
Location: 30-40N 90-100W
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Atheism is a lack of belief in deities. Is your lack of belief in the tooth fairy not sound?
God isn't really the same as a tooth-fairy or as something you dreamed up one Saturday morning.

For one "God" is a word that can mean far more different things than "tooth fairy."

Some kind of God/High-God exists in many or maybe most cultures. In 2003 a Gallup Poll indicated around a third of the US's people say they have had a "religious or mystical experience" and this was higher than the percent who said that in 1962.

Religious Awakenings Bolster Americans' Faith

The concept of God allows for reconciling of certain issues and questions..

None of this means there must be a God, but at the very least I think it does mean God is more meaningful a concept than tooth-fairies or some purple dragon you invent. It does at least say something about what humans need or think they need. IOW I think it makes sense to treat it the way I'd like to think I treat Vishnu or the Jade Emperor or whatever.
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Old 01-12-2012, 04:29 AM
 
39,120 posts, read 10,849,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
God isn't really the same as a tooth-fairy or as something you dreamed up one Saturday morning.

For one "God" is a word that can mean far more different things than "tooth fairy."

Some kind of God/High-God exists in many or maybe most cultures. In 2003 a Gallup Poll indicated around a third of the US's people say they have had a "religious or mystical experience" and this was higher than the percent who said that in 1962.

Religious Awakenings Bolster Americans' Faith

The concept of God allows for reconciling of certain issues and questions..

None of this means there must be a God, but at the very least I think it does mean God is more meaningful a concept than tooth-fairies or some purple dragon you invent. It does at least say something about what humans need or think they need. IOW I think it makes sense to treat it the way I'd like to think I treat Vishnu or the Jade Emperor or whatever.
It is certainly true that 'God' gets applied to a lot of things and we have to assess, essentially, different claims,

A personal God - claim (Biblegod, Hindu Gods)
An anthropomorphic god of everyone (agnostic-god, perhaps)
A First cause creator, Deistgod or pantheist God
'God' as an explanation for the feelings we get when he meditate, all cheer and sing together, look at a sunset or talk to ourselves.

Each of those had different supporting evidence and the common thnig is that each (if it can be made to look reasonable) can be linked to the personal God one wishes to validate.

However, at best we have real phenomena which often turn out to have other explanations, claims based on using 'God' as a stopgap explanation for unanswered questions an stories or claims which appear to have a strong mythological element which don't stand up too well under scrutiny.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
It is not logical to have that certainty. It gives you a narrow mindset. The agnostic is more open minded.
The avowed 'agnostic', I think you will find, shares the atheist certainty in rejecting the god -claims of the various religions. As to some sortagod, we are no more and no less agnostic than they are. We just have the more logical (and possibly open - minded) position of not believing in what we do not know whereas they tend to half -believe in it.

I believe you lose that particular round Julian, though you won't admit it, of course.

To both of you,: comparison of the Spaghetti monster, pink Unicorn or Tooth fairy tends to irritate the believer since (as a caller in to Austin Atheists found himself saying) 'But those things are all myths' whereas God' has a lot more going for it. A history, personal experience, miracles, a panoply of Theologians, religious leaders, charismatic preachers, writers and artists who used their art to celebrate the claims of that religion. What has the Tooth Fairy - or even santa, got to compare?

But that's not really the point. All that says is that a lot of people have believed it for a long time. Longer even than the greek gods, almost as long as the Egyptian gods, though not as long as the Hindu gods of course. But we are certain that they are not real, either.

We could use the Egyptian, Roman or Norse gods and sometimes do, but then the theists can say 'They are dead. No-one believes in them any more'. Which is actually irrelevant, but sounds good. About Living gods, they are of course, personal experience of the true God, but none of them perceive Him in the right way. That is quite clever and when push comes to shove, the Muslim and Christian apologists will drop their damning of each other to a fiery hell to stand together against the atheist with a stout declaration that it is indeed all the same god.

So we are really stuck with the mythical constructs in which no theists seriously believe or would dream of equating with their own god and which yet have some currency in popular imagination. The point being that there is really no more sound evidence for any of the personal gods than there is for any of those Easter bunnies, leprechauns or bogeymen, and the fact that nobody has been making a living out of promoting their reality (well, Santa come close) is really not the point.

I think or hope that clarifies the points you both raise and the result is that not believing in Santa is not a cult or a religion. It is no more than not joining one.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-12-2012 at 04:47 AM..
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am advocating agnosticism. You go on and on to say there is no God, but you cannot prove it. I suggest you become an agnostic and you will end up a much better scientist.
Sounds like someone's being intolerant here and pushing their belief system on others. Kind of cult-like behavior if you ask me...
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Old 01-12-2012, 06:59 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,939,436 times
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Originally Posted by Kansarado View Post
You don't think that everything was formed from nothing, and then for no reason it all came together and formed dinosaurs is more logical than things were created with intelligent design considering the statistical impossibility to the contrary?
Since no one believes the former this is a meaningless question.

Quote:
Why is your assertion any more logical than mine?
What assertion?
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:05 AM
 
5,462 posts, read 5,939,436 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
So are you agnostic about the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Purple Unicorn?
Invisible Pink Unicorn. Heretic.
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:47 AM
 
9,806 posts, read 6,735,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
not believing in Santa is not a cult or a religion. It is no more than not joining one.
I think most Atheist are quite normal and certainly not cultists.

However, some take the time to set up web sites to promote Atheism and write material and dogma such as the Atheist Creed. Other Atheists set up church like meetings to congregate and reaffirm to each other their cherished Atheism. Some even have rites and ceremonies during the solstice.

For these folks Atheism is a cult.


Justin Griffith at the Regional Atheist Meeting in Florida. - YouTube

And make no mistake about this. The Atheist have a Pope and his name is Richard Dawkins. He makes as much money preaching atheism as many Evangelical leaders.
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Old 01-12-2012, 07:51 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,186 posts, read 11,003,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
Thank you for not using the unicorn example, ha, ha.

The problem is that we have a universe and the amazing planet Earth. Cosmologist know the visible universe started with the Big Bang, but they do not know a thing about the the instant before the Big bang or whether there was anything here at all. Relativity and Quantum mechanics fall apart at the time of the Big Bang. Hopefully Super String theory can bring some light on this.

The universe or multiverse is not the same as a tooth fairy or a unicorn.
The problem here is that you keep trying to add to the definition. An atheist does not believe in any gods. That's all there is to it. Big Bang? Dinosaurs? Creation? All off-topic. No applicable. Doesn't matter. Atheists still do not believe in any gods. Nothing else matters. It is completely irrelevant if something makes more sense. Atheists still believe in no gods. Give up trying to redefine what these people are and trying to convince them they believe something they don't.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:36 AM
 
9,806 posts, read 6,735,280 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
The problem here is that you keep trying to add to the definition. An atheist does not believe in any gods. That's all there is to it. Big Bang? Dinosaurs? Creation? All off-topic. No applicable. Doesn't matter. Atheists still do not believe in any gods. Nothing else matters. It is completely irrelevant if something makes more sense. Atheists still believe in no gods. Give up trying to redefine what these people are and trying to convince them they believe something they don't.
There are only three options to explain our existence, one is to believe in God, another is agnosticism which states their may be a God but I haven't found proof. The last is atheism where one will state they know God does not exist.



This is not just a non- belief in God but a willful denial of his existence. Agnosticism is where one admits that they do not know if God exists, not having the proof or that there is a personal God who has always existed.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:38 AM
 
9,806 posts, read 6,735,280 times
Reputation: 2485
Quote:
Originally Posted by mensaguy View Post
The problem here is that you keep trying to add to the definition. An atheist does not believe in any gods. That's all there is to it. Big Bang? Dinosaurs? Creation? All off-topic. No applicable. Doesn't matter. Atheists still do not believe in any gods. Nothing else matters. It is completely irrelevant if something makes more sense. Atheists still believe in no gods. Give up trying to redefine what these people are and trying to convince them they believe something they don't.

The Best Richard Dawkins Moment Ever!!! - YouTube


Looks like a Pentecostal meeting.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:57 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
11,186 posts, read 11,003,902 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
There are only three options to explain our existence, one is to believe in God, another is agnosticism which states their may be a God but I haven't found proof. The last is atheism where one will state they know God does not exist.



This is not just a non- belief in God but a willful denial of his existence. Agnosticism is where one admits that they do not know if God exists, not having the proof or that there is a personal God who has always existed.
You're wasting everybody's time trying to convince everybody that your new definition is the way the world is. Give it up. You are still wrong. Atheism: Belief in zero gods. Nothing to add to the definition, such as "state they know" or anything else.
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