Elmwood park , What is happing to it? (Chicago, Oak Park: middle-class, apartments)

[ndfmnlf]

Now, this riff raff is being forced west into areas like Cragin and Hermosa and then Galewood is next. Guess what is after that? That's right, Elmwood Park. I don't see Elmwood Park getting better anytime soon as it is facing downward pressure from multiple fronts (Maywood, Melrose Park, Northlake, and Galewood & Austin)

So what do you propose? Expel all non-whites from Elmwood Park?

[illinoisboy]

You must have skipped over my post. THESE PEOPLE NEED NO STATS TO PROVE WHAT THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD HAS TURNED INTO!! THEY HAVE SEEN IT WITH THEIR OWN TWO EYES!! Invent a time machine, go to EP 10 years ago, then, when you come back, go there again. See for yourself what has happened.

[ndfmnlf]

You must have skipped over my post. THESE PEOPLE NEED NO STATS TO PROVE WHAT THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD HAS TURNED INTO!! THEY HAVE SEEN IT WITH THEIR OWN TWO EYES!! Invent a time machine, go to EP 10 years ago, then, when you come back, go there again. See for yourself what has happened.

Yeah we should invent a time machine to take us back to the time when Elmwood Park was 100% Italian.

[Lookout Kid]

Elmwood Park is getting more diverse, but not more criminal. I suspect a lot of the Hispanic residents are hard-working homeowners. Some posters say that they see the crime increasing "with their own eyes", but I htink their eyes are just seeing young Hispanic youths who dress in an urban style. The stats are the only reasonable measure we have to get a snapshot of crime in Elmwood Park, and it's ridiculous to imply that the police department has manipulated crime stats to the point of cutting the crime rate in half since the 90s. I just don't buy it.

[citygrl707]

I never complained about any race. Some of the gangbanger are white some are not. I have lived in the city of chicago and around illinois my whole life. I went to a all hispanic school when i was a child i have no problem with any race. My neighbors on one side of me are hispanics and there the greatest people you would ever meet.

When i say thugs , i mean, pants halfway down , there underwear showing and shouting gang sighns. I dont need anyone to tell me what a gangbanger looks like i have lived in some of the worst parts of chicago growing up.

I work full time and so does my husband, to date we are renting because i can't afford to pay 400,000 for a house and with the economy so bad i wanted to make sure we both had jobs . I have worked since i was 16 years old to make a better life for me and my children.

Every family in my building our hispanics and i only have a problem with the young punks that have just moved in. Last night has consisted of them runing up and down the stairs 15 times in 1/2 hour. When i broke up a fight on fullerton and 76th two weeks ago the cops were called, they break them up and they just go at it again.

The stats on elmwood park are old , there has been alot of break in's and gang related shooting, thank goodness no one was hurt. Do i know yes i live there .

To me its not a white thing, or a spanish thing, its a crime thing.

Section eight was put into place for people who can't afford the whole rent, what is happening is these parents have young teenagers that dont work or go to school and have nothing better to do then break the law.

When there leave garbage and bottels in the park im out there cleaning it up, i want my kids to have a nice and safe place to live. Thats it.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

The whiners have no one to blame but themselves. They abandon Elmwood Park because they see non-whites moving in. Nobody told them to leave except their own prejudices. Nobody kicked them out of their homes. They assume that their property values will decline with the influx of minorities. Interestingly enough, the property values in Cupertino California actually soared to the stratosphere partly because Asians moved in and caused the school district to become hyper-competitive and excellent. Cupertino is one of the most desirable, clean, safe, and affluent cities in the US today, yet whites still fled it anyway.

Passionate topic, and I'm going to try to be as neutral as possible here and keep my own personal views out of it. The decline in property values with influx of minorities has historical support (more so with African American influxes than Hispanic ones). As sad as it is to say, it's not unreasonable to fear for the value of your home if a lot of minorities start moving into your neighborhood. The process may be set in motion by bigotry but the effect cannot be denied even by the most open minded. So what starts happening is you gradually get legitimate concerns about value thrown in with the underlying bigotry, and eventually the rationale tips towards the economic side, and the wheels completely come off. That's why it's critical to maintain diversity, however you can. I don't like the trains that run through my town, but I'm not going to go out and stand in front of one to prove that point.

I've always hoped that we as a society have advanced past this ugly reality but as I get older, I realize we've made little progress since the Civil Rights movement, and I think the blame for that runs both ways. Whites tend to overreact, but the minority groups left with neighborhoods which have changed haven't exactly stepped up to the plate and proven everyone wrong either. Those so inclined can cite examples all day long of neighborhoods plunged into dispair and misery at the conclusion of white flight. I think you can only go so far in blaming those who left. At some point, the incoming group has to assume responsibility and help themselves.

You can cite crime stats all day long but they'll have limited effect, as this thread pretty well illustrates. Some will ignore them, others will say they're doctored, etc. You can lecture people all day long and make them feel guilty about their biases, and it may work, but the guilt will fade while the attitudes will not.

Real change is going to have to stem from the discriminated groups setting an example. Hopefully enough people stay behind to show them the way if this is indeed happening in this community!

[ndfmnlf]

Real change is going to have to stem from the discriminated groups setting an example. Hopefully enough people stay behind to show them the way if this is indeed happening in this community!

How about the example of Cupertino California I cited earlier? How about the affluent cities of Walnut CA, Diamond Bar CA, Chino Hills CA, Irvine CA, and many other California cities that are majority Asian or have sizeable Asian populations with good schools, low crime, soaring property values? How come whites still fled these areas? Is it the fear of being outnumbered? Is it the fear of loss of power that comes with becoming a minority? I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case. We whites have been used for so long to being the boss, to calling the shots all the time, that we somehow panic when we see our numbers drop from 100% of the population to 85% of the population.

[oakparkdude]

Originally Posted by BRU67

Passionate topic, and I'm going to try to be as neutral as possible here and keep my own personal views out of it. The decline in property values with influx of minorities has historical support (more so with African American influxes than Hispanic ones). As sad as it is to say, it's not unreasonable to fear for the value of your home if a lot of minorities start moving into your neighborhood. The process may be set in motion by bigotry but the effect cannot be denied even by the most open minded. So what starts happening is you gradually get legitimate concerns about value thrown in with the underlying bigotry, and eventually the rationale tips towards the economic side, and the wheels completely come off. That's why it's critical to maintain diversity, however you can. I don't like the trains that run through my town, but I'm not going to go out and stand in front of one to prove that point.

I've always hoped that we as a society have advanced past this ugly reality but as I get older, I realize we've made little progress since the Civil Rights movement, and I think the blame for that runs both ways. Whites tend to overreact, but the minority groups left with neighborhoods which have changed haven't exactly stepped up to the plate and proven everyone wrong either. Those so inclined can cite examples all day long of neighborhoods plunged into dispair and misery at the conclusion of white flight. I think you can only go so far in blaming those who left. At some point, the incoming group has to assume responsibility and help themselves.

You can cite crime stats all day long but they'll have limited effect, as this thread pretty well illustrates. Some will ignore them, others will say they're doctored, etc. You can lecture people all day long and make them feel guilty about their biases, and it may work, but the guilt will fade while the attitudes will not.

Real change is going to have to stem from the discriminated groups setting an example. Hopefully enough people stay behind to show them the way if this is indeed happening in this community!

Agree entirely. Demographic and economic change is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd hate to be the last middle-income homeowner in a neighborhood after all the other middle income residents have left to be replaced by lower-income residents. Do you sell your house early in the trend for 400k, or wait to the very end and sell your house for 250k?

You really can't expect the average citizen to risk losing 100k or more for the sake of promoting diversity. That's too much a burden to bear. Its a very difficult problem to solve, and that's why only the very rare community (such as OP) seem to have succeeded, and even here its still problematic.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by ndfmnlf

How about the example of Cupertino California I cited earlier? How about the affluent cities of Walnut CA, Diamond Bar CA, Chino Hills CA, Irvine CA, and many other California cities that are majority Asian or have sizeable Asian populations with good schools, low crime, soaring property values? How come whites still fled these areas? Is it the fear of being outnumbered? Is it the fear of loss of power that comes with becoming a minority? I'm beginning to wonder if that's the case. We whites have been used for so long to being the boss, to calling the shots all the time, that we somehow panic when we see our numbers drop from 100% of the population to 85% of the population.

How about Englewood, Garfield Park, Lawndale, Austin, Auburn-Gresham, West Pullman and the South Shore? I totally agree with most of what you're saying, but I bet if we listed all of the "white flight" cities/neighborhoods in the country, ones that declined would outnumber the success stories by an eye-popping margin. I hate bigotry too but if we ignore the other side of the coin, we won't make progress towards getting rid of it.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by sukwoo

Do you sell your house early in the trend for 400k, or wait to the very end and sell your house for 250k?

You really can't expect the average citizen to risk losing 100k or more for the sake of promoting diversity. That's too much a burden to bear. Its a very difficult problem to solve, and that's why only the very rare community (such as OP) seem to have succeeded, and even here its still problematic.

Only $100k? Shoot, compare one of those pretty Victorians in east Oak Park to an identical one in Austin a block away, heh. I bet the margin's wider than that. In Detroit, you can get a great house in the city proper for about 10k, or less. Granted, Detroit has problems that go much deeper than anything we can comprehend but it shows that hell's the limit when it comes to what can happen to property values in an extreme white flight situation.