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Old 06-15-2010, 09:43 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 9,752,545 times
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There seems to be this common belief that God did not create sin, simply because no one wants to believe He would do such a thing. To me, it only makes sense and there is scripture to back it up. If God did not create sin, then sin would not exist, right? He is the Creator of ALL things, good or bad. Reject it or accept it, it exists because God created it and allows it to exist.

Ironmaw1776 quoted Romans 11 in another thread, and that's what gave me the idea for this thread.


Romans 11:32

32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.


If this doesn't speak of Him allowing sin, I don't know what does. If this doesn't speak of universal reconciliation, I don't know what does. This one verse says it ALL.

Romans 11:7-9

7What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day."[a] 9And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.


I mean, come on!! The above shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that God deliberately made them stupid, gave them eyes that could not see or ears that could not hear!! GOD IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING!! Sin and evil exist for HIS PURPOSE, although we may not understand it. HE created it, and we are to avoid it. That's the rules. He has a few elect, and the rest God will reconcile to himself. And He will:


1 Timothy 2:3-5

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;


You just can't argue with this stuff. The Bible is clear that God is the Creator of all things, including sin, but we are told quite clearly what to do when it comes to sin:


Romans 12:9
[ Love ] Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.


LOVE!!! There's the answer to it all!! If we follow what Jesus said, the rest will fall in line:


Luke 10:27
He (Jesus) answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' "


The focus should always be on love. Does it really concern us why God created sin? Does it really concern us why He allows sin and evil? NO!! It is His desire that it exists, it is our job to concern ourselves with following His commandments, avoiding sin and evil, and to LOVE. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!!
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Old 06-15-2010, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,111,650 times
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I think you just answered your own thread, Ilene!!

(Where's the "heart" icon when you need one???)

Blessings to you!
brian

Isa. 57:
16For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made. 17For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
19I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:46 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,685,493 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post
The focus should always be on love. Does it really concern us why God created sin? Does it really concern us why He allows sin and evil? NO!! It is His desire that it exists, it is our job to concern ourselves with following His commandments, avoiding sin and evil, and to LOVE. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!!

I understand where you are coming from, we do not have to know everything in order to understand Love, however, we do not have to relinquish to ignorance: it is possible to understand.


If a point uses a "we can't understand" clause, it should be looked at very carefully. You can use the "we can't understand" for two opposing points of view rendering it meaningless as a proper conclusion.

I do not understand everything, but scripture says in 1 timothy 2:4 that we will be brought to the knowledge of truth.

So we can understand.

Typical explanations will tell us that everything is about Gods plan, and range from "God doesn't get everything he wants" to "God planned and takes pleasure in his purpose that a child was raped"

But when we talk of love we can have different perspectives. A parent who loves their child will discipline that child even when the child objects, is rebellious or cries.

The biblical perspective in the context of a God of righteous moral character can tell us that there are things that must be because even God cannot change them.

Some object when you suggest God cannot do everything, but that is because they are wrapped up in a need to feel a certain way when thinking about God.

The reality is in scripture "God cannot lie" God cannot do everything.

The question then remains, is that fact a weakness or an unbreakable strength and a point of supreme assurance.

We will learn righteousness, and the fact remains we must know unrighteousness in order to come to the knowledge of truth. A fact that even God can not change.


However, again, that fact is a point of supreme assurance that we will become righteous and no one will be lost, because our journey to perfection is something that MUST be and cannot change because we will become one with God and God does not change.
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,558,523 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilene Wright View Post

The focus should always be on love. Does it really concern us why God created sin? Does it really concern us why He allows sin and evil? NO!! It is His desire that it exists, it is our job to concern ourselves with following His commandments, avoiding sin and evil, and to LOVE. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!!
You just described the Tree of Life - very well done, grasshopper!
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:47 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,408,216 times
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Hi Ilene, I have tried to raise this topic several times before, and it is a difficult one to be sure. It tends to lead to raised emotions and such. People don't like to think that God has anything to do with evil, despite verses that say God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7), and that both evil and good come from God (Job 2:10). Also its helpful to realize evil and sin are not exactly the same thing. Evil is badness, but sin is bad intent. God causes/allows/permits evil, but God always has good intent - and is all-powerful so He can always achieve His intent.

Like Phaze says, you will usually get extremes of answers like its "free will" that causes all evil/sin or on the other end God is evil because He wants evil to happen... neither of which I believe.

But there is an understanding in there if you can somehow take a step back from all that and have a broader vision beyond the evils of this world. Sin and evil was part of the plan because it had to be that way. Certain things --very good things--perhaps infinitely good things-- could not happen or be understood if there was no evil/sin. This does not make God any less powerful, it just means things have to be this way in order for whatever God wants to happen.

An example is we know God grieves at certain points in scriptures - it doesn't mean things didn't turn out the way He wanted - it means things had to be that way. It grieves me to discipline my child sometimes. But it has to be that way to achieve the results I want.

And we may not understand it all exactly now, but we will, as per 1 Tim 2:4 (thanks Phaze).
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:41 PM
 
7,862 posts, read 6,671,409 times
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In Genesis 1:1-4.... God created the Heavens and the earth........ and the earth was without form and void and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep ... and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters ... and God said Let there be light and there was light.... and God saw the light thit it was GOOD and God divided the light from the Darkness........ Then in Genesis 1: 14-16...... God Created the sun and the Moon......... So if God created the sun and the moon in verse 14-16 ..What was the light and darkness in verse 1-4.that God had to separate.?.... BUT Sin of darkness and light of Goodness of God.........
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Old 06-15-2010, 04:54 PM
 
365 posts, read 424,639 times
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KJV translation say this:

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version)


7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


but NIV says this:




Isaiah 45:7



7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:04 PM
 
309 posts, read 295,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Hi Ilene, I have tried to raise this topic several times before, and it is a difficult one to be sure. It tends to lead to raised emotions and such. People don't like to think that God has anything to do with evil, despite verses that say God creates evil (Isaiah 45:7), and that both evil and good come from God (Job 2:10). Also its helpful to realize evil and sin are not exactly the same thing. Evil is badness, but sin is bad intent. God causes/allows/permits evil, but God always has good intent - and is all-powerful so He can always achieve His intent.

Like Phaze says, you will usually get extremes of answers like its "free will" that causes all evil/sin or on the other end God is evil because He wants evil to happen... neither of which I believe.

But there is an understanding in there if you can somehow take a step back from all that and have a broader vision beyond the evils of this world. Sin and evil was part of the plan because it had to be that way. Certain things --very good things--perhaps infinitely good things-- could not happen or be understood if there was no evil/sin. This does not make God any less powerful, it just means things have to be this way in order for whatever God wants to happen.

An example is we know God grieves at certain points in scriptures - it doesn't mean things didn't turn out the way He wanted - it means things had to be that way. It grieves me to discipline my child sometimes. But it has to be that way to achieve the results I want.

And we may not understand it all exactly now, but we will, as per 1 Tim 2:4 (thanks Phaze).
Great way to look at it legoman. He chasens us in the same manner, and I believe it grieves Him to do so as well. It is as you say "But it has to be that way to achieve the results I want."

Last edited by joeallcomm; 06-15-2010 at 05:05 PM.. Reason: edit sentence
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:10 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,374,021 times
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We really need to read what it says:

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil. I the LORD do all these.

What does it say?

Darkness and evil are created, yes? Why? What happened to trigger this event?

He MADE Light and Peace. The darkness and evil are a by-product of the things formed, fashioned, or made.

When God made peace, people seek to divide and destroy this peace. This is evil.

When God formed the Light, people didn't love the Light, for there was no Light in them, and they loved the darkness rather than Light.


This is why when all is said and done, there is no longer any darkness. Those to whom call and honor God as God our Father, and serve His Son, will be reconciled TO the Light forever.
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Old 06-15-2010, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,902,789 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
In Genesis 1:1-4.... God created the Heavens and the earth........ and the earth was without form and void and DARKNESS was upon the face of the deep ... and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters ... and God said Let there be light and there was light.... and God saw the light thit it was GOOD and God divided the light from the Darkness........ Then in Genesis 1: 14-16...... God Created the sun and the Moon......... So if God created the sun and the moon in verse 14-16 ..What was the light and darkness in verse 1-4.that God had to separate.?.... BUT Sin of darkness and light of Goodness of God.........
Thank you. Darkness and sin are not something one needs to create. Before God created the world, there was darkness.

32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The above talks about how Jews (all men) rejected Christ which lead to Christ having mercy on Gentiles. Context matters.
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