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I understand what you are saying, and (gasp!) I basically agree with your description of God's nature: He is love, and would not do that to people. (IE: "torture" people forever)
But...it is my understanding that God doesn't actually (actively) send anyone to hell, or actually (actively) torture people in hell....He doesn't have to. He doesn't have to do anything at all to see that happen...
Why not? Because....by a person dis-associating him/her-self from God (not accepting Christ), they are "strictly on their own" after death of their body. God's angels will not be there to "whisk them away". Why not? Because their names are not written in the Lamb's book of life, that's why. They refused to have anything to do with God while alive, so He basically says "Ok...you've made your choice"...
IE: God is a gentleman, and won't force Himself on anyone...that it's our/your choice. You think you can "go it alone" and don't need any help? Well...ok...goferit then. (and good luck...because you'll need it)
So then what...seeing that God doesn't send His angels to "pick them up", after death? So then....upon dying, these people instantly become easy prey to evil spirits...they are easy victims. (since they don't have the protection of God, or His angels). Where do they end up? Hell...of course. So did God cast them into hell? Nope...He did not. Is God torturing them? No, He's not...He doesn't have to...the devil and his evil legions take care of that.
But, sadly, invariably, God gets the blame for it...
Anyway, that's basically my understanding. The above just "IMO"...I don't claim it as hard and fast "gospel truth", and I'm not trying to teach it as such...it's just what I believe...
Bud
I might could agree with you if Christ were not a Savior. Here's my take on your view:
It is my understanding that a fireman doesn't actually (actively) make anyone die in a house fire, or actually (actively) torture people with fire....He doesn't have to. He doesn't have to do anything at all to see that happen...
Why not? Because....by a person dis-associating him/her-self from the fireman (not coming out of the building themselves), they are "strictly on their own" after death of their body. The fireman will not be there to "whisk them away". Why not? Because they didn't pay their taxes, that's why. They refused to have anything to do with the fireman or do their part while alive, so He basically says "Ok...you've made your choice"...
So did the fireman cast them into the house fire? Nope...He did not. Is he torturing them? No, He's not...He doesn't have to...the house fire and their refusal to pay their taxes take care of that.
But, sadly, invariably, the fireman gets the blame for it...
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 07-14-2010 at 03:37 PM..
She is trying to find some way to express the idiocy of the Co-Saviour theory( we are co-saviours with Christ) . . . so that it might be recognized for what it is. Apparently not everyone is capable of seeing this.
By what twisted rationale can you possibly see this as applying to ONLY believers? The wording unambiguously implies a general audience. Why would believers (who already bow to Him, etc.) be referred to as "SHALL" or "WILL" Every means "EVERY!"
EVERY MEANS EVERY BELIEVER!
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
14:9 (For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived. The life of the Christian is a new life that springs out of Christ's death; we die with him; we rise with him) ...
Romans 6:4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
When you die in your sins, your dead soul dies dead...and when God raises up the dead souls from their dead grave to stand before him a second time at the Great White Throne of Judgement, they will DIE THE SECOND DEATH...which means they will FOREVER BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!...how difficult is this to understand...?
Rev 20:14 Death and hell were thrown into the fiery lake. (The fiery lake is the second death.)
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their [the believer's who saw their salvation] eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things [all the sinners...liars...cheaters...blasphemers...idolate rs...murderers..haters of God and Jesus...darkness] have passed away."
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Revelation 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will NOT! be hurt by the second death.'
Revelation 9:21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Revelation 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [the Kingdom of Heaven!], but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
those who live and die in their sin are separated from God!!!
That is a nice cliche but it is meaningless to me since scripture tells me that Christ died FOR ALL and ALL will confess JESUS as LORD.
Do you think Confessing Jesus as LORD is pointless and has no positive effect on the one CONFESSING?
Secondly, you need to realize, if you haven't, of course you may agree with the person I replied to, that this person doesn;t believe JESUS dies for ALL. He ONLY died for those who already believe according to him.
No...you do not know what you are talking about...
Are you assuming that one is you? If not, take your pick. Is it your son or daughter or mother or daddy? Ridiculous to think Jesus' sacrifice would be worth saving just one. That's a catch phrase that is meaningless and pitiful.
P.S. Do you have scripture to back up that little catch phrase?
One big problem I have with "UR" is the idea that those who refuse Christ (and even many of us who DO accept Him) will then have to undergo a long period of "purification" in hell, that will likely last for thousands of years, or even eons (multiple millenia) of time, before they are finally "good enough" to go to heaven.
IE: "It's not forever, it's only 10,000 years...etc..."
Question: is God's power so weak that His purifying fire takes that agonizingly long to remove the sin nature? Why can't He take away our inclination to sin in just a blink of an eye, or a heartbeat, and thereby leave all the misery behind us quickly? I mean, He's all-powerful, right?
I agree with the verse - however, it doesn't say all are saved.
It says that every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord. Only way for that to happen is for everyone to have the Holy Spirit. Just trying to give you something to think about. Let the Word guide you - don't try to guide the Word.
Separation of Gods attributes from his nature is not scriptural.
Gods Wrath is through his inherant nature which is LOVE,
GOD is LOVE
Gods wrath remained on me until I believed, no there is no denial of that.
That WRATH remained upon me because the purpose of LOVE was to draw me to God. Wrath that does not do that is not Godly but can be seen in humans around the world.
You assert that ALL is incorrectly used, but there is no scriptural exclusions for that passage. There are certainly cases where ALL is not talking about "MANKIND" and those uses of ALL DEFINES the particular group it is intended to point out.
MANKIND in 1 Timothy 2:4 has no scriptural context to only mean "some"
Only an intepretation by a man invented set of guidlines to make ALL into a certain context does that for that passage. That context is not in scripture.
Wow...you are confused...
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I basically agree with your description of God's nature: He is love, and would not do that to people. (IE: "torture" people forever) 
